Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-23-2010, 02:59 PM
You would think the real issue would be that those glasses would become infinitely older.

Unless the scene on the cutting room floor is the shop keeper dropping and stepping on those glasses. Making them... not the glasses Bones bought.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-23-2010, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sintar07 View Post
No, there aren't two pairs in the past! See, Kirk sold them to the antique shop and McCoy gets the same pari of glasses to give to him in the future.
you assume too much. The glasses had to originate from somewhere to begin with. Somebody made the glasses that eventually found their way into McCoy's possession to be gifted the Kirk. Kirk creates a paradox by selling the glasses in the past not by receiving them as a gift in the present. Skuh :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-23-2010, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capulet View Post
you assume too much. The glasses had to originate from somewhere to begin with. Somebody made the glasses that eventually found their way into McCoy's possession to be gifted the Kirk. Kirk creates a paradox by selling the glasses in the past not by receiving them as a gift in the present. Skuh :p
Not true. Haven't you ever seen Lost in Space? That has predestination paradox written all over it. The very nature of the predestination paradox is that we don't know where the item9s0 in question came from in the first place. Like the compass in the OP
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-23-2010, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capulet View Post
you assume too much. The glasses had to originate from somewhere to begin with. Somebody made the glasses that eventually found their way into McCoy's possession to be gifted the Kirk. Kirk creates a paradox by selling the glasses in the past not by receiving them as a gift in the present. Skuh :p
Infinite loop.


the glasses were bought by McCoy, sold by Kirk, so they could be bought by McCoy, so they could be sold by Kirk, So McCoy could buy them, so Kirk could sell them, and that's how McCoy could buy them and Kirk had them to sell.

But this is all dependent on weather or not after Kirk sells the glasses, those glasses then become purchased by McCoy in the future. I submit they are not bought by McCoy, as the infinite loop would only be possible if the glasses could never age and decay, since the glasses must decay over time they can not possibly be placed into an infinite loop that would place them at and age exceeding all possible measurement.


I submit that at a linear point in time. from the year 1986 till the moment the Klingon Bird Of Prey departs the year 2286 there are in fact two of the glasses.

Let us say that we start at the manufacture of the glasses in oooh lets say 1886, we will call them glasses 1a. The glasses travel with the rest of the universe aging normally. Now 300 years later they are purchased by McCoy in 2286, now we will call them Glasses 1a+300, in 1986 a BoP arrives with starfleet officers one of whom, Kirk, Carries glasses 1a+300. at this point in time 2 pairs of glasses 1a exists, one is glasses 1a+100 and one is glasses 1a+300. now let us go to the year 2286 McCoy can not be purchasing the glasses carried back in time for if he did they would now be 1a+500 and would age another +200 years each time they complete the loop. Therefore McCoy must be Purchasing glasses 1a+300 while glasses 1a+500 exists elsewhere in 2286 OR has been destroyed.

Paradox disproved. Infinite loop not occurring.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-23-2010, 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFork
Paradox disproved. Infinite loop not occurring.
Thats actually potentially the case.

There is however such thing as a 100% true loop.

Slightly related;
In one of the later Monkey Island games your character spends some time in a temporal loop where you meet your future self.
The neat thing about it is that you have to repeat everything your future doppleganger did when it comes time to be him or risk causing a paradox.

Each time your future self gives you several extreemly useful items that you never seem to have during the MI series including a gun and a rope, which you must give to your past self who then gives them to his past self over and over and over and over.....

(These are true causal items as you did not initially poses them upon entering the loop and only gain them form your future self. There is no room in the system for them to have ever entered so QED they must have simply 'existed' in the loop eternally. Paradox.)

You also say "If you're me then what number am I thinking of now" and he responds with the correct one because he was once you. If you can just keep that number in your head you can perform the same trick when you become the future guy and so on.

Neat yes?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-23-2010, 04:24 PM
That loop is not possible. The Gun and Rope would become infinitely older until decay, corrupting the loop, unless they existed outside of time and were not capable of aging.

In cases of video games, any item in a game is a virtual item, and thus exists outside of time, making infinte loops in games possible :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFork
That loop is not possible. The Gun and Rope would become infinitely older until decay, corrupting the loop, unless they existed outside of time and were not capable of aging.
Thats possible (but never proven) given that the loop is created in a place called 'The Mysts O' Time Marsh' which is basically temporally fractured.

In a sense though its 'proven' by the fact that the loop never degrades.

If you ever make a mistake in the marsh a vortex swallows the entire thing and spits you back out where you started.

A Temporal reset button.

Which also lends further credibility to the idea that whatever anomaly governs the place also acts as a failsafe against basic paradoxes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Again, Lost in Space causality loop. And in any case, one cannot assume that an item that is in an infinite causality/paradox loop isn't immune to things like aging. After all, we don't know where the item came from in the first place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-23-2010, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sintar07 View Post
Again, Lost in Space causality loop. And in any case, one cannot assume that an item that is in an infinite causality/paradox loop isn't immune to things like aging. After all, we don't know where the item came from in the first place.
Are you implying that God or maybe Q made a magic pair of glasses so Kirk could get buss fare? :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-23-2010, 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFork
Are you implying that God or maybe Q made a magic pair of glasses so Kirk could get buss fare? :p
Knowing Q and (kindof) knowing God, quite possibly... I'm just saying, in cases where there clearly is a causality/paradox loop, the item or events in question should not be in existence at all. But they are.

For an extreme example, see Robert A. Heinlein's "-All You Zombies-"

Just read the plot. It's a seriously weird causailty/paradox loop.
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