Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Death Penalties?
02-24-2010, 06:11 AM
Ok now perhaps someone can give me a reasonable explanation why they think this would be a good thing?
Personally as I see it right now (no one has given me a good viable reason to have death penalties) that would be disastrous to implement.
Perhaps in pve a SMALL exp loss, as long as you can never lose enough to lose a level or abilities. PVP there should NEVER be death penalties.
With the limited amount of exp gain the Klingons receive through pvp and it being really their only main method in which to do so this would make for even less Klingon players. Ok Feds..prepare to add even MORE hours to your wait time for pvp ques.
Or if you lose gear in some way..NO ONE will want to pvp then, as that idea has destroyed pvp in most games that implemented it.
I understand there needs to be something to the argument that there needs to be some downside to dying as right now its simply respawn charge in wash rinse repeat.
Ok rather than ask for death penalties, how about asking for larger play areas where it takes you longer to get to the battle from respawn, how about longer respawn times? The areas of battle are FAR too small. I think this idea that Cryptic used for pvp was a bad one in general. If there was a vast open area of pvp space, with real goals and objectives (conquering planets/bases etc) with some significant travel times, then dying would be a little more detrimental as you wouldnt be able to return to the scene of battle in just 30 secs. But a real exp penalty?? bad bad bad idea. PVP is already bad enough with the fed/Klingon imbalance. Granted a rich pve side to the Empire may help fix this, but the game has already either 1) Lost subscriptions due to the lack of foresight already or 2) become a fed pve game only with little to no klings above t2 or t3.
If we need to do something to make dying a little more detrimental, then lets explore options that don't have a sharper side of the sword on the neg side than the problem they are supposed to fix. EXP loss in pvp or gear drop in pvp would be a horrible idea to me.
But then again...its just my 2 energy cred. I just think better solutions can be come up with.

Ideas?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-24-2010, 07:04 AM
I like the idea of penalties. Here are some examples of how it works in the following games, but some of them I thought it was too extreme due to the grind.

Lineage 2 - Great game, great content for all levels, castle sieges, PvP anytime anywhere, but the grind is extremely excessive. When you are killed outisde of a castle siege area you lose a large amount of XP, but never any current skills gained. And, depending on your level you can gain that back quickly, but at the endgame range you might spend days getting back the 5% or so you lost. This game is great, but the grind to get up in levels combined with the chance to drop items when you die and the extreme grind holds it back alot.

SWG (Jedi pre-cu) - This is perhaps the best game until the botched it, if you managed to pull off getting a Jedi before the whole village which heralded its downfall. As a Jedi you lost XP each time you died, and getting XP back wasnt easy, but it was doable and having a end-game Jedi was extremely fun for PvP as well as some PvE while you were out killing the Krayt Dragons solo searching for those pearls.

Planetside - No real negative side to dying which was nice since it was a FPSMMO of sorts on a very large scale. But, that one got botched again when they nerfed the tanks in it. Why oh why did they implement the mechs to that game, and flying ones too? Seriously?

Vanguard - Nice game visually, but the death penalty was not bad. The bad part though was when your town that you HAVE to goto regularly was being camped by a large group of the enemy faction that was the max level with the best gear. Yeah, that is not PvP that cannon fodder, and your the fodder the cannon hits.

Pirates of The Burning Sea - Great game, loved it and am looking forward to the servers combining soon. However, I havent played it for nearly a year it seems. Reason I stopped, it became monotonous in the PvP area. See, in that game you dont lose any XP, but instead you lose your ship if it is destroyed or captured. Granted, they have "insurance" which nearly pays for the thing, but most of the ships you have to build yourself or PvP for tokens to get the ship. This game is fun, but if you are not all that hot about losing your good ships and getting say 70% of its cost back, then it is bad.

There are many ways to do PvP correctly, and many ways to do it incorrectly. I like how STO game impliments most of its PvP. True, I do think that ship loss could be good, but only outside of PvP qued PvP. I also think that actual ship loss might be too extreme for many of the younger players who are not into that idea. So, I think having a hybrid of it would be one way to go.

Theoretically if they would impliment say non-PvP ship loss/repair could be a way to go. Okay ill explain, you are in a PvE zone doing your normal thing when bang your dead. Okay, so instead of losing your ship you get a message saying it is at a repair dock and you have to pay X amount of credits and X amount of honor/fed version of honor (cant think of its name offhand). Once this is payed you get your ship back after a 24 hour timer has expired, or you dont pay it and get it back after 48 hours. I would like to see that implimented, but I know many more would not like to see that implimented.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XedoeSR View Post
There are many ways to do PvP correctly, and many ways to do it incorrectly. I like how STO game impliments most of its PvP. True, I do think that ship loss could be good, but only outside of PvP qued PvP. I also think that actual ship loss might be too extreme for many of the younger players who are not into that idea. So, I think having a hybrid of it would be one way to go.
The biggest problem with ship loss in PvP would be that you'd basically have to either have a bunch of ships "in the bank," or you wouldn't actually be able to PvP in space combat anymore -- additionally, for feds, you'd be stuck with no way to earn the energy credits needed to purchase a new ship (other than grinding ground PvP), so you couldn't PvE for a good while either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XedoeSR View Post
Theoretically if they would impliment say non-PvP ship loss/repair could be a way to go. Okay ill explain, you are in a PvE zone doing your normal thing when bang your dead. Okay, so instead of losing your ship you get a message saying it is at a repair dock and you have to pay X amount of credits and X amount of honor/fed version of honor (cant think of its name offhand). Once this is payed you get your ship back after a 24 hour timer has expired, or you dont pay it and get it back after 48 hours. I would like to see that implimented, but I know many more would not like to see that implimented.
This could potentially work, forcing players to use lower-tiered ships (also forcing them to keep them up to snuff), but what about Ensigns/Lieutenants who only have the one ship? You're basically sentencing them to boredom for 24-48 hours.

While I grew up with BBS Door Games like Tradewars that had permanent loss of life/limb/equipment, I'm not sure how well those types of punishment systems fit into MMOs these days. While they do add a valid consequence for not performing well, if it's easy for a player to die, then they can quickly become frustrating. I could MAYBE see some sort of lingering system damage (after being defeated, you slink away with some serious system damage, lowering some combination of your weapons/shields/engine/aux power levels -- over the course of 5 minutes or so your crew would repair the problems and things would continue as normal.

I doubt, however, that after launching, and continuing this long without a death penalty system that one would be added. People have grown used to it (moreso if they play(ed) CO as well). Something I WOULD like to see, however, is an increasing death timer for PvP. Each time you are killed, it extends the respawn timer by a second (up to a maximum of maybe 15 extra seconds). This would prevent the "zerg rush" that seems to occur when a single side is winning a skirmish, and could also encourage teams to take measures ensuring that their teammates didn't die in the first place (face it, if Lt. Jenkins is now on a 30 second time to respawn, you're probably going to try to keep him alive so you don't get totally outnumbered). Downside, perhaps, is this could result in griefing of a sort, where a single person is repeatedly targeted until they're on a long respawn timer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-24-2010, 11:54 AM
To Xedoe:

Ship loss would be a death knell to the game in general.
Not trying to flame but an absolutely HORRIBLE idea!
Yeah lets say to the person who doesnt have the creds, oh sorry, you cant play anymore for 24 hours.

Lets say to all the pve'rs oh btw after between 2-3 deaths, your done for 24 hours.
Lets just say....good bye for an MMO. Come on man, that would be utterly disasterous.
No one who had to wait 24 hours to play after a death would keep playing a game...doesnt matter what game.
**** (which was probably the BEST mass pvp system ever implemented in any mmo to date, just wish they understood balance in classes) had death penalties set up that if you died in pve, a small exp loss. Go back to point of death, pray at grave stone and get some of that loss back. The loss would get bigger and bigger if you just kept on dying that level, but it even had a exp loss cap. And you could never lose enough to go back a level. In PVP, there was no exp loss....you died fighting for your realm, and death came often most of the time. There was a Resurrection sickness that was timed, your abilities would be lowered until this time ran out, then you would be back at normal.
But even then, battles could extend over vast areas, so it took time to get back anyway.
But to potentially tell people...PAYING people..oh sorry, you are not ALLOWED to playfor 24 hours.......
Kiss that subscribing payer good bye, hes PAYING to play, and if he/she cant play...they arent going to pay you for not being able to.
Imagne buying a console game that did the same thing...you die in the game and the Xbox(or whatever) locks you out for 24 hours..hmm...think anyone would be buying anymore of that game? No.
Horrible idea.
Sorry man not trying to flame you, notice I never said anything personal other than this is a bad idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Ship damage, in the form of a weakened hull, or lengthened refresh timers on abilities, would be better.

Incremental, perhaps a percentage point or three, or a second or two, per death. Nothing that will make the occassional loss crippling, but will DEFINITELY impact the desire to go in zerging for one battle/mission.

Points are recovered slowly over time, or can be bought back with merit points at a starbase.

Similar penalty for characters and BOs on the ground. Keep getting nailed, and your hit points and timers get penalized until you have time to heal, or accelerate the process at a starbase. You can literally cripple yourself beyond the ability to function, but make it a recoverable loss in some manner that sets you back a bit.

No skill loss (which is just malicious), no permaloss (again, not for a game this casual), but definitely something to make you factor in just how many times you want to bash your head against the wall.


Oh, and just for the record, I would NOT encourage these penalties for arena PvP, at least not the open melee ones where racking up kills is the goal. That could get abused horribly.
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