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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-28-2010, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by Mike111
Direct your anger at the devs not the players. Spawn camping happens on both sides in almost every place where pvp can happen.

Poor planning and design of the system.
This is completly true. It happens on BOTH sides. The only unique things for klingons is that they can cloak hide with a BoP and draw out matches WAY longer than a fed can. Not because the feds wouldn't but because they simply can't :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-28-2010, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Cuffs View Post
That said the feds need to learn a bit of patience too. Just because we're not zooming in at full impulse, decloaking and firing willy-nilly doesn't mean we're purposely trying to screw you over. Sometimes regrouping, and planning takes time. I've been on the loosing side of a 10v6 point arena, where we stayed cloaked, regrouped, and ended up winning. Took some time to plan, but we did it.
Well said.

There is a difference between "Cloak Griefing" and trying to actually win.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-28-2010, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ellandess View Post
Space pvp.

Warped into the spawn (new game, score still 0-0). Five klingons spread out in a semi-circle around the spawn point opened fire on each fed that came through the portal. Bang - it's 5-0 and one-third of the game is lost.

Space pvp.

Klingons are losing 8-0 to the feds in a perfectly good fight. 2 minutes passes and no klinks show up. 5 mins. 10 mins. Nothing. Cloaked and afk - or just left? Who knows.

These two separate pvp arena encounters happened right after each other.

In both cases, I'd queued for the obligatory 20 minutes to get into these matches. There is no excuse at all. Not even saying, "Feds/Klinks did it to us last time".

I will agree that if the PvP queueing system and lack of timer was addressed by the devs, these deliberate griefing sessions would cease to exist, but in the meantime, remember that on a single server your reputation will outlive you more than ever before. We can talk to each other, we can play on the same side as each other. We're all gamers and all trying to have fun.

Ask yourself the question next time you're asked to get involved in this kind of pathetic, skill-less playstyle. Am I really that much of an arse that I can't win without doing this?
I'd just like to point out that there've been any number of times I've zoned in and been shot at loading by a group of Feds... It's not just a Klingon thing.

Also, I've been berated for 'cloak griefing' while there've been two of us listed on our side... sorry I don't want to attack 2 against 5. Usually I'll say something in general chat about waiting for the rest of the team who lingered too long with the blood wine last night... I've also seen folks leave when the score goes against them, and I prefer to wait for the team to fill again. To be honest, I've seen feds leave when the score goes against them as well, and I express my sympathy and thanks to the ones that stick it out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-28-2010, 01:14 PM
The problem with us feds moving slow as snails is the fact that is the only guarantee for us to not leave anyone behind accidentally and being ready to fight when getting jumped (energy levels).

Klingons don't have to take care not to do that, because they're cloaked until they choose to join the battle.

What we would need to address this is some sort of battle group impulse speed, some sort of middle ground between full impulse and combat maneuvering.

Like, being locked into direction and formation by the team leader, being limited to the slowest ship's speed and maneuverability...you get the point.
Also, able to break formation once Red Alert hits.

Well, and little energy weapon draw.

=> We make ourselves extremely vulnerable for a brief amount of time, Klingons (again) need not worry about this as they're - you guessed it - cloaked until properly prepared to fire.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-28-2010, 01:33 PM
As someone that have done extensive PvP on both sides of the fence (RA as Fed and Cpt 8 and LtC8 as Klingon) I think I can speak for both sides.

Now, I do not in any way condone spawncamping, in my mind there is no excuse for it.

The point of PvP in ST:O is to have fun, winning or losing are irrelevant as the payout are nearly identical. Neither is there any sort of influence from the game to the gaming world.. In other words, wether Feds or Klingons win doesnt matter at all.

Ive heard some arguements from people that spawncamp, that they only care about winning, and we've allready established that winning is irrelevant.... If your opponents cant fight, because they are denied the chance to even group up, only one side have "fun" and the match itself is pointless. As a matter of fact, I would go as far as stating that the people that do it, only serve to stretch their E-Peen, not realizing that they are making people laugh about the miniscule size of it.

As someone else pointed out, the Feds can spawncamp as well, they are far from as effective at it as Klingons, because they dont have the luxury of sitting in cloak at 15 to 20k range planning, but they cant and they do it on occassion.

The best games Ive played have been against full Fed teams or against full Klingon teams, in the middle of the map, not around the north portal, some of these matches Ive won, and some Ive lost.. The deciding factor in these games were the individual skill and the mutual support of the players on both sides, not who got grouped up and spawncamped first.

In any case, there is nothing we can do about it really, it isnt "forbidden" and it proves hard to convince the players that do it, that they are honourless p'taQ's..

You cannot put an invulnerable area around the spawn area, since people could just opt to sit there indefinately (sure, we could force people out of this area, but that wouldnt be a gurantee that the teams are full)..

The only thing I can think of, is increasing the invulnerable timer from spawn to maybe 1 or 2 minutes (atm its something like 2-4 secs, if Im not mistaken).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-28-2010, 04:11 PM
Personally, I think they need to add a post-spawn cloak or non-combat immunity effect that lasts a short time (5-10 seconds) to allow a spawning player to at least try and get away from a spawn camp or if they spawned in the middle of opponents. This spawning in front of a group of enemies seems to happen most on ground PvP and the Solar Wind and Cracked Planetoid maps.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Anxiety
See, again, the problem we have here, is you think it's wrong, I could care less. It's a video game. Don't like it, whine at cryptic to created protected spawn zones. The player generated drama over it, while amusing for a bit, is pretty dumb, and as I've been trying to point out and it doesn't seem to be sinking in, is the people who do it do not even remotely care what your opinions are nor do they have to. Unless you're gonna pay their subs, they get to play however they'd like.

But jesus, if you actually think they're going to punish people for spawncamping? Is this your first MMO or something?
My final word on the subject (because as you've pointed out it's pretty remote that you're gonna become ethical anytime soon) is this:

Just because something has been done before (in other video games) does not automatically make it a good, or acceptable, mechanism in future games.

But you are right, mores the pity, no amount of appealing to a sense of fair play, or "whining" to Cryptic, is going to change the fact that there are always going to be people who seek unfair exploits (I'm not going to go so far as to call it cheating), there are always going to be people who get a thrill out of being in a group that kicks down individuals or pairs when the odds of their being able to fight back are negligable. That is how they get their fun. There is a name for that sort of person. (and no, it's not "winner")

So, there are really only two ways to deal with such diametrically opposed views.

1) Next time someone spawnjumps you...refuse to press respawn when you die. Don't play their game. There are plenty of other pvp matches out there where people do want to compete on a balanced basis.

2) Cryptic will eventually realise that unlike some MMO's which have by far the Lions Share of the market, if they want STO to survive and be a cash cow, eventually they will have go beyond the standard model and evolve it. Hopefully, this will happen sooner rather than later addressing some of the issues that this heated argument has raised.

Argument Over.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-28-2010, 09:46 PM
That works. Play the game if it's fun, don't play it if it's not fun. It's Cryptic's job to make it fun, not mine, though.

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