Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-06-2010, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain View Post
I know where you are coming from, really I do. But the reality is that pvp in this game is terrible. I mean really really terrible. Anything based on or derived from it, is doomed to be terrible too. The PVE in the game is at least passable. The PVP was not good enough to keep anyones interest as it was, due to it sucking so bad, which is why we have a population problem anyway. You do not build onto a rotten house and foundation. You demolish it and build an entirely new one. If you want the klingons to be a pvp faction, it can't be with this kind (the current setup) of pvp.

They obviously are not redoing the pvp system in the near future, so PVE really is our best bet to getting anyone on the faction and keeping them here.
Nice analogy regarding the house and foundation, well said
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-06-2010, 06:30 AM
I agree with many of the posts. Though like any game the conent needs to be divided between both pvp and pve content to adress the needs of all the player base. I don't mind grinding all the way up pvp if need be. However I also like pve content as well and it provides a nice break.

I was working on my klingon but got disheartened. Having to wait 10 minutes for pvp maps just to level is a bit much. Not to mention with the recent mass exodus now you have to wait 10 minutes for absolutely nothing. I logged in Kelmvor yesterday, finally got into a pvp arena. Me and one other individual were there on the same team. The two of us waited an eternity and not another single player showed up. This was a space house battle no less.

I went to my first warzone where you have decrypt the listening stations then destroy the repair cubes. I was in the process of doing this when i got attacked by another kingonship and destroyed in the process since i was now fighting several cube droids and now had to fend off another klingonship at the same time. This surprised me. On the federation side it is different. You complete the map then seem to warp into a map where klingons will appear. Needless to say i learned quickly after rereading the mission journal. At first I didn't read it due to i believed to be the exact same as the fed side. However when i logged back in i noticed other ships that where yellow but did not attack them if they were engaged in fighting nodes, encrypting or blowing up the repair modules.

In fact me and that other yellow ship flew around just doing what we needed to do and didn't bother each other. I guess both realizing we need to level without being griefed. I only engaged if another ship logged in and attacked me. Which only happened once. He snuck up and destroyed me while fighting borg npc's and i took my revenge after.

I understand the logic but now i have to try and level up worrying about federation ships and other klingon ships. This sets up a lot of griefing in my opionion. I maybe just too nice but i remember the days of Eq1, where i joined the game, started out as a newb and a high level character or two would enter and take over the zone for hours. You couldn't level, they would hold the zone hostage for hours on end and in many cases just stand over your corpse and kill you so many times in a row you just had to log out.

I don't mind pvp, even if i die. I don't even mind dying a few times because there is a learning curve in every game. What i do mind is having my playtime monopolized for hours on end. Which I see is perfectly cappable of happing since the ships that can engage you can be what as much as ten level highers. I am running around leveling and next i'm attacked by a +6 ship. I am l6 being attacked by an LC0 who could possibly grief people for hours?

No wonder most are not willing to play the klingon side. Only the most hardcore pvpr's would endure that bs. Which is one of the reasons I actually did like wow. Besides the cartoonish characters and limited race, class options. I atleast liked the fact I could level in peace and only enter pvp when I so choose. Either by entering battlgrounds, going to a pvp server, flagging myself, duels. Even If i lost the responsibility was my own, I was the one that entered the area in the first place. I knew what i was getting into by entering that area and could engage in both pvp contenct and level in peace without being griefed for hours.

Anyway this is long enough. I will close with this. I don't mind entering pvp areas even if it meant fighting other klinks, now that i have been properly educated. However their has to be a proper mix of both. This way i know i also have an alternative method should i enter a war zone and be unsuccesful. Least there is more content so i can go do something else and come back to the war zone later when I am a bit stronger or even if i don't i can try again later, without having my time monoplized hours on end.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-06-2010, 12:24 PM
Seems like the PvPers here have tunnel vision and cannot see the bigger picture.

For STO to survive and for your to have a dynamic, thriving community you have to climb out of that dark tunnel, look into the daylight and see STO as more then your little PvP heaven.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MugHug View Post
Seems like the PvPers here have tunnel vision and cannot see the bigger picture.

For STO to survive and for your to have a dynamic, thriving community you have to climb out of that dark tunnel, look into the daylight and see STO as more then your little PvP heaven.
THE OP is not saying sacrifice Fed PVE for PVP. He is saying stop wasting time on klingon PVE. Give us PVP which is why we're playing the game. The majority of the best selling PC games were pvp or had SIGNFICANT pvp elements. STO is lacking in that department.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PC_video_games

Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (not on list yet, but already top seller)
* The Sims (16 million shipped)[1]

* The Sims 2 (13 million)[2]
o The Sims 2: Pets [expansion pack] (5.6 million)[3]
o The Sims 2: Seasons [expansion pack] (1 million)[3]
* StarCraft (11 million)[4]
* Half-Life (9.3 million,[5][6] may include PS2 version)
o Half-Life: Opposing Force [expansion pack] (1.1 million)[5][6]
* Half-Life 2 (6.5 million,[5][6] may include Xbox version but does not include Steam sales)
* Myst (6 million)[7]
* SimCity 3000 (5 million; includes Sim City 3000 Unlimited edition)[8]
* Doom (5 million)[9]
* The Sims 3 ( 5.9 million, includes PC and Mac sales)[10]
o The Sims 3: World Adventures [expansion pack] (1.2 million pre-order)
* Riven (4.5 million)[11]
* Battlefield 1942 (4.39 million BF1942 2.47 million, BF1942:RTR 0.64 million, BF1942:SW 0.49 million, BF Deluxe 0.37 million, BF Anthology 0.42 million)[12]
* Counter-Strike (4.2 million,[5][6])

* Cossacks: European Wars (4 million)[13]
* Diablo II (4 million)[14]
o Diablo II: Lord of Destruction [expansion pack] (1 million;[14] 2 million shipped)[14]
* Populous (4 million)[15][16]
* Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? (4 million) [17]
* RollerCoaster Tycoon (4 million in North America)[18]
* Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War (4 million including expansions)[19]
* Battlefield 2 (3.57 million BF2 2.25 million,BF2:SF 0.8 million,BF2:EF 0.2 million,BF2:AF 0.13 million,BF2 Deluxe 0.1 million,BF2 Complete Collection 0.09 million)[12]

* Doom 3 (3.5 million)[20]
* EverQuest (3.5 million)[21]

* Theme Park (3.5 million)[16]
* Age of Empires (3 million)[22]
o Age of Empires: The Rise of Rome [expansion pack] (1 million)[22]

* Civilization IV (3 million,[23] may include Mac OS X version)
* Command & Conquer: Red Alert (3 million)[24]
* ******** III: Reign of Chaos (3 million)[25]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-06-2010, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgery
Quoted for truth. It's lthe same concept with fighting and first person shooter games. I know many people that own Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and have never completed the campaign mode even once; they strictly play online only.

Or the Super Smash Bros franchise. I know several people that have not even touched the single story mode once, though it is obvious that the programmers are trying to put much more effort into developing the story mode through each new installment.

Instead of changing the KDF faction to resemble more of a Federation variant by developing PvE content, it would be interesting if the PVP aspects of the KDF faction were developed instead.
The problem here is your compaireing Apples to oranges. True FPS games you want to PvP. I am currently playing AvP for the X-box and it rocks on line, I have not even compleated the "PvE" story lines for the Alien or the Marine, just the Preditor. But when im going to pick up a FPS, im already expecting that most of the content is going to be PVP. But when you make a MMO heavy pvp centerd, it will already fail; look at the examples, *** (age of conan), ****, Pirates of the Burning sea, the list goes on. MMOs should have both PVP and PVE for all factions and races.

Now I currently love my Klingon, but I only play him once every 2 weeks or so. Im ether going to study (Chem 212 is a *****) or play AvP. No matter how much pvp they will try to pump into a MMO it will never meet a FPS. If I want to kill other players only im going to chose a FPS. But If I want a game where I feel like the character more im going to pick a MMO or RPG...one of the best games I have ever played was a FPS/RPG, but it had no PVP and that was Fallout 3 (all the fallout games rocked and I started playing with the first one when I was 15 years old).

EDIT: To the poster above...most the games you cited are not MMOS they are FPS, I dont know where people get the idea that their should be heavy PVP in a MMO, just because FPS games exist. Like stated above FPS bread and butter is PVP, MMOs should not try to compeat with that....theirs is story-line and customization (now im not saying that MMOS should not have pvp, and that FPS should not have custom items, im just saying they both should stick at what they are good at).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-06-2010, 01:18 PM
loads more pve coming for klinks in the content patch. no so much on pvp. stop asking for pve please. everything is a direct port from feds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digglez
THE OP is not saying sacrifice Fed PVE for PVP. He is saying stop wasting time on klingon PVE. Give us PVP which is why we're playing the game. The majority of the best selling PC games were pvp or had SIGNFICANT pvp elements. STO is lacking in that department.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PC_video_games

Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (not on list yet, but already top seller)
* The Sims (16 million shipped)[1]

* The Sims 2 (13 million)[2]
o The Sims 2: Pets [expansion pack] (5.6 million)[3]
o The Sims 2: Seasons [expansion pack] (1 million)[3]
* StarCraft (11 million)[4]
* Half-Life (9.3 million,[5][6] may include PS2 version)
o Half-Life: Opposing Force [expansion pack] (1.1 million)[5][6]
* Half-Life 2 (6.5 million,[5][6] may include Xbox version but does not include Steam sales)
* Myst (6 million)[7]
* SimCity 3000 (5 million; includes Sim City 3000 Unlimited edition)[8]
* Doom (5 million)[9]
* The Sims 3 ( 5.9 million, includes PC and Mac sales)[10]
o The Sims 3: World Adventures [expansion pack] (1.2 million pre-order)
* Riven (4.5 million)[11]
* Battlefield 1942 (4.39 million BF1942 2.47 million, BF1942:RTR 0.64 million, BF1942:SW 0.49 million, BF Deluxe 0.37 million, BF Anthology 0.42 million)[12]
* Counter-Strike (4.2 million,[5][6])

* Cossacks: European Wars (4 million)[13]
* Diablo II (4 million)[14]
o Diablo II: Lord of Destruction [expansion pack] (1 million;[14] 2 million shipped)[14]
* Populous (4 million)[15][16]
* Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? (4 million) [17]
* RollerCoaster Tycoon (4 million in North America)[18]
* Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War (4 million including expansions)[19]
* Battlefield 2 (3.57 million BF2 2.25 million,BF2:SF 0.8 million,BF2:EF 0.2 million,BF2:AF 0.13 million,BF2 Deluxe 0.1 million,BF2 Complete Collection 0.09 million)[12]

* Doom 3 (3.5 million)[20]
* EverQuest (3.5 million)[21]

* Theme Park (3.5 million)[16]
* Age of Empires (3 million)[22]
o Age of Empires: The Rise of Rome [expansion pack] (1 million)[22]

* Civilization IV (3 million,[23] may include Mac OS X version)
* Command & Conquer: Red Alert (3 million)[24]
* ******** III: Reign of Chaos (3 million)[25]
Granted, but we are talking MMO and if I remember properly the top MMO has a mix of both PVE and PVP, that being World of ********, and unlike other MMO's (STO excluded) it sees the value (dollars) catering for both.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-06-2010, 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain View Post
I know where you are coming from, really I do. But the reality is that pvp in this game is terrible. I mean really really terrible. Anything based on or derived from it, is doomed to be terrible too.
I don't see how you can say that unless you think the PvE is terrible as well because you simply don't like this game's mechanics.

The PvP in this game is good in the sense that the basic mechanics are sound. The actual mechanics of players fighting each other in ground combat could use tweaking but it's good. The actual mechanics of ships fighting ships is something I find enjoyable.

What sucks is the content: 5v5 deathmatches and tiny capture-and-hold maps where you can fly across the whole thing in just a few seconds. It's very, very shallow, basic arena combat. Just like Kahless Expanse is terrible PvE content because it's nothing but a bland room of random killing, Cracked Planet is terrible PvP content for the exact same reason.


PvP needs real content.

It needs bigger maps, connected maps, things that move from area to area and take more than 15 minutes to do.

It needs story and progression.

Building good PvP content is a lot like building good PvE content. So I don't want to hear about Cryptic spending a lot of time building episodic PvE content for Klingons when they've barely spent time at all on our PvP content. Build us some REAL PvP content and then let's talk again about whether or not the PvP sucks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-06-2010, 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamz
I don't see how you can say that unless you think the PvE is terrible as well because you simply don't like this game's mechanics.

The PvP in this game is good in the sense that the basic mechanics are sound. The actual mechanics of players fighting each other in ground combat could use tweaking but it's good. The actual mechanics of ships fighting ships is something I find enjoyable.

What sucks is the content: 5v5 deathmatches and tiny capture-and-hold maps where you can fly across the whole thing in just a few seconds. It's very, very shallow, basic arena combat. Just like Kahless Expanse is terrible PvE content because it's nothing but a bland room of random killing, Cracked Planet is terrible PvP content for the exact same reason.


PvP needs real content.

It needs bigger maps, connected maps, things that move from area to area and take more than 15 minutes to do.

It needs story and progression.

Building good PvP content is a lot like building good PvE content. So I don't want to hear about Cryptic spending a lot of time building episodic PvE content for Klingons when they've barely spent time at all on our PvP content. Build us some REAL PvP content and then let's talk again about whether or not the PvP sucks.
And I could answer the same "build some real PVE content and then we can talk about whether PVE sucks", it is not good looking at this from one perspective though, most people either want PVP as that's all they are really interested in or they want PVE for the same reason, a GOOD game needs a mix of both so all parties are catered for and the company profits.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-06-2010, 08:51 PM
Simple - Klingon PVE and I will roll up a character, maybe even try PVP. No PVE? No Klink for me and quite a few others judging from what I've seen on the boards. So, it seems either live with some PVE content or, basically, the demise of a faction. 'Nuff said.
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