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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-07-2010, 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Arac
If you compare a Federation cruiser to a raptor or a bird-of-prey, yes, I was being honest in trying to compare like-for-like, however.

At best, the Federation escort has a 25% increase in hull points over the Bird, is there even a disparity in shield strength? Personally, I believe universal bridge slots and battle cloaking more than make up for that, but in the end I'm happy to call it a wash (although suggesting the escort is superior in some way is so disingenuous it hurts my brain).

However, I'm more concerned about the disparity between the Federation cruiser and the Klingon battlecruiser, where the hull difference is in fact less than 10%. If there's a huge difference in shield strength I'm not aware of - please educate me. In return, the battlecruiser gets all the advantages previously mentioned: cloaking, much better turning, and the ability to fit cannons - and the argument that cannons are somehow not an advantage because of the narrow firing arc is laughable. The battlecruiser turning rate is more than sufficient to use dual cannons, if you don't think so, use standard cannons, and if you don't like them you can still have the same beam loadout as a Federation cruiser.

I've explained this over and over, given sound reasoning, and all I get back is the constant refrain of 'Klingons are better because we PvP more', which is probably true and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Can someone please, referring to the actual ship statistics and abilities presently in-game, explain why the battlecruiser is not a vastly superior vessel to the Federation cruiser? Not just 'it has more shields and hull' - HOW much more, and why does that matter.
Its superior because it is more maneuverable. Period. +Cannons so you need to cater to being behind a more maneuverable ship in your garbage scow..

F4 pilots in WWII learned to do it to zeroes....(it was a more armored more lighly armed fighter than the zero)

Spitfire pilots somehow learned to do it in WWII versus the vastly more manueverable me109s

Going back to WWI Sopwith camel pilots learned to outmaneuver the germans too...despite them having more maneuverable craft...

I'll give you a hint here... it has to do with angles of ascent and decent and firing arcs ...and in the case of a fed cruiser using beams you should always be as close to their rear quarter as possible and at an up or down angle > 45 degrees... congrats you've overcome the cannon arcs.. commence winning instead of whining.

What does this mean? Learning when to 'run' Emergency power to engines to climb or descend rapidly to a position that favors you is your key and hey with extra engineering slots you COULD have that covered ...but RSP is more 'favorable' to you than actually maneuvering your ship right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-07-2010, 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
Its superior because it is more maneuverable. Period. +Cannons so you need to cater to being behind a more maneuverable ship in your garbage scow..
What does this have to do with anything I've said? I asked for cold, hard reasons why the battlecruiser is not a vastly superior ship to the Federation cruiser.

All you seem to be doing is trying to tell me how to work around that superiority by making totally inapplicable analogies to World War 2 fighter planes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-07-2010, 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post

It currently takes 2-3 players klingon side on a single well played fed cruiser to take it down same seems to hold true on fed side....
and it takes just as many feds to take down a well played BC/carrier.


that aside, you all seem to be comparing the sides from a PUG point of view, wich i wasn't aiming for.

i specifically said to try and keep it with set groups in mind because THATS where the game can be balanced around.

you can't balance a game around ppl that either dont care or are to stupid to learn to play properly.

and you also can't compare ship by ship either as this game doesent allow for 1v1's.

its a fleet versus fleet game and should be balanced around that. and right now set klingon fleets are having a field day versus set federation fleets because of feds inability to compete in DPS while feds despite their defense penalties (wich are still only really noticable in T1 and T2) can field just as much defenses as feds.

the point with this thread wasn't to try and gimp a ship or weapon, i was trying to adress the imbalance that stacking skills cause, especially offensive ones.

i'm perfectly fine with klingons having their agility advantage because they use tight arc weapons.

looking at the patchnotes they will hopefully not be able to sport 3000+ DPS much longer and might make FvK popular again for the klingon set groups. i just hope theres enough fed set groups around as alot of them FOTM rolled klingons.

now i DO realize that klingons are meant to sport good DPS to make up for their (not so much) lack of defenses, but right now they can get so much of it even RSP can't keep up when theres 5 klingons shooting you.

i dont think you klingons realize just how much 12000 - 15000 DPS hurts a cruiser, not to mention a escort or science ship


tired, heading to bed. sorry if i got something wrong i'm knackered :<
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Arac
What does this have to do with anything I've said? I asked for cold, hard reasons why the battlecruiser is not a vastly superior ship to the Federation cruiser.

All you seem to be doing is trying to tell me how to work around that superiority by making totally inapplicable analogies to World War 2 fighter planes.
You are in the slower less maneuverable ship...and complaining about a more maneuverable ship...


Much like those fighter comparisons..

Put another way ... be where he doesn't expect you to be...

It is only vastly superior to fed cruiser because you aren't taking away the 'cannon' advantage by not being in the front arcs...

If you always fight MY fight...I will beat you every single time...
So first you need to figure out what YOUR fight is and then work to get there as often as is possible.

Your fight is running broadside to him behind him for as long as possible. Innately you have two skills that can put you there every captain gets them...adding in Two emergency power to engine abilities..(even rank I will do) and you can have an ability that is almost always available to maneuver behind them...

Stop playing to your weakness and start working on your strategy for engaging the more maneuverable ship at a disadvantage whenever possible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-08-2010, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
It is only vastly superior to fed cruiser because you aren't taking away the 'cannon' advantage by not being in the front arcs...
No, as I've stated multiple times: it's vastly superior because it's much more maneuverable, can cloak /and/ can fit cannons - including 180 degree ones that nullify this increasingly tired 'hide behind him' argument (as if that were even valid given equally skilled pilots considering the turn rate differences).

There seems to be a lot of die-hard Klingon players very quick to jump on the bandwagon of trotting out the 'learn to play' trope. This isn't about me in my Federation cruiser not being able to beat you in your Klingon battlecruiser - I don't even play a Federation cruiser, and I do play a Klingon battlecruiser.

It's about /you/ in a Federation cruiser, versus /you/ in a Klingon battlecruiser.

Give me a Negh'var, and give Bizarro-me a Sovereign, and I'll kick his ass up and down the street every single day and twice on Sundays, and if you don't believe the same of yourself I really believe you're just lying to yourself.

And the OP is contending that the same would apply to a whole team of 'me' in Klingon ships versus one in Federation ships, and I - for one - believe him.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-08-2010, 01:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Arac
No, as I've stated multiple times: it's vastly superior because it's much more maneuverable, can cloak /and/ can fit cannons - including 180 degree ones that nullify this increasingly tired 'hide behind him' argument (as if that were even valid given equally skilled pilots considering the turn rate differences).

There seems to be a lot of die-hard Klingon players very quick to jump on the bandwagon of trotting out the 'learn to play' trope. This isn't about me in my Federation cruiser not being able to beat you in your Klingon battlecruiser - I don't even play a Federation cruiser, and I do play a Klingon battlecruiser.

It's about /you/ in a Federation cruiser, versus /you/ in a Klingon battlecruiser.

Give me a Negh'var, and give Bizarro-me a Sovereign, and I'll kick his ass up and down the street every single day and twice on Sundays, and if you don't believe the same of yourself I really believe you're just lying to yourself.

And the OP is contending that the same would apply to a whole team of 'me' in Klingon ships versus one in Federation ships, and I - for one - believe him.
Its an argument filled with logical errors though...

There is always someone better.. and a 70 degree difference is big in the array vs 180 cannon coverage..



And I hate to play this one on you too, but the fighter pilot comparison was intentional as the way that the US pilots and the british pilots beat their 'better' armed and armored opponents was through teamwork.

And yes god forbid you should use it..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-08-2010, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
Its an argument filled with logical errors though...
Then name them, or stop avoiding the issue.

Are you saying you'd beat a copy of yourself in a Negh'var if you were in a Sovereign more than one in ten times? Go on, say that, I'd like to see it on the record.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-08-2010, 02:13 AM
Im sorry to say it (as a FED), but most people dont try to exploit the cannon arc weakness and let the klingons pound them to death. Alot of people (feds) completely ignore speed and its defense bonuses. I have not seen many people flying above or below the klingons to compromise their firing arcs.

On the other hand, most (but not all) klingons at least make effort to run before escorts. But you would be suprised how many run the "park and shoot" aproach, and are very vulnerable once you fly above them, because they arent used to enemies, which do that.

After like 100 pvp matches in T5 as FED, i can say, that most FED issues come from lack of experience, or game "features" like borked queues, which make games start with uneven numbers. The fact that some FEDs also think they know it best and dont follow orders/suiciding/leeching doesnt help it much also.

The only sucking stuff about pvp right now, is the flavour of the week = all klingons equiped with feedback pulse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-08-2010, 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Arac
Then name them, or stop avoiding the issue.

Are you saying you'd beat a copy of yourself in a Negh'var if you were in a Sovereign more than one in ten times? Go on, say that, I'd like to see it on the record.
Fighting myself ??! You're going to stick to that weak arguement?

yes Fighting myself I bet I'd go 50-50 in this situation depending on who made the first error / got lucky first.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-08-2010, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Im sorry to say it (as a FED), but most people dont try to exploit the cannon arc weakness and let the klingons pound them to death. Alot of people (feds) completely ignore speed and its defense bonuses. I have not seen many people flying above or below the klingons to compromise their firing arcs.

On the other hand, most (but not all) klingons at least make effort to run before escorts. But you would be suprised how many run the "park and shoot" aproach, and are very vulnerable once you fly above them, because they arent used to enemies, which do that.

After like 100 pvp matches in T5 as FED, i can say, that most FED issues come from lack of experience, or game "features" like borked queues, which make games start with uneven numbers. The fact that some FEDs also think they know it best and dont follow orders/suiciding/leeching doesnt help it much also.

The only sucking stuff about pvp right now, is the flavour of the week = all klingons equiped with feedback pulse.
Your honor let the record show that Lugh and Dalnar are in agreement.

No doubt much to his horror.
:p
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