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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-02-2010, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Acylion
Actually, it DOES tell you this in the game text. It's there. You just missed it.

Early in the game Admiral Quinn gives you a mission to talk to Commander Balt in the personnel office (at Earth Spacedock). Balt tells you about skills. If you missed this, you can still go back to Balt at any time and read his dialogue:-

I agree, it's not obvious. But it's there.
OK, fair enough. To me it just underscores the need for an decent user manual for this game.

I have noticed this trend with a lot of games, not just STO, where they never write decent manuals anymore these days. Generally you are expected to spend an extra $20 (on top of the $50 or $60 for the game itself) to buy a "game guide," which typically has 20 pages or so of user manual (thanks), and 10 pages of useful maps, but also goes way overboard and spoils everything with a complete walkthrough.

All I want is a printed manual that explains the game's features, but essentially STO users have been forced to cobble together their own user manual in the form of various posts on this and other boards, several different wiki sites of varying degrees of quality and completeness, and whatever hard-to-find/hard-to-understand/just-plain-wrong in-game text that's available.

Blame it on the fact that I'm from the 80s, when software (even games!) typically came with a nice, thick, detailed user manual with a full index, a table of contents, diagrams, page numbers, and decent writing quality.

But now, not only with games and software but also when it comes to digital cameras, cell phones, or almost any other product you can think of, you can almost guarantee yourself to receive a thin, crappy manual that's either poorly translated or just plain scant, and leaves you no other option than to go comb through some online forum or read some disorganized on-screen help system. My Canon printer has an HTML-based manual that's the most convoluted thing I've ever seen.

Was there some kind of convention at some point where everyone that makes products got together and voted not to write manuals anymore? Did the manual writers go on strike and then never got hired back?

I guess it's just the status quo these days. I feel like I'm turning into George Carlin as I grow older. Sigh.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-02-2010, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Truong
I think you guys are confusing something, this is a game not real life. Just look at WoW, I am a Mage that can craft armor "Blacksmithing". A mage have no use for armor, yet he and train it and sell it but can't use it. Before you yell "only a noob do that", let me remind you that WoW is also a game and it was amusing to have a blacksimthing mage.

Back to the point, I agree it is frustrating to have the tool tip say that we train up BO skills. Then invest into those prereq's to discover that you can't do it. The point is that, it states "if you do ABC, then you be granted XYZ", and that isn't happening.

For you real life example buffs. I am Home PC Repair tech, and naturally I can train people on how to use their PC's. I can also teach you how to take great pictures. I can teach you how to do a proper titeration. I can also teach you how cook SE asian and chinese food. However professionally I am a Home PC Repair Tech. Just in case you don't get it. What one's profession has little to no bearing on what they can teach you.
Thank you, very well said, Truong. I pretty much agree.

But to the credit of everyone who has disagreed with us on this, I have to say, they do have a point. Like I said, it can really be argued both ways, when it comes to this.

For example I know a guy who is a video producer by trade, but he makes some of the best bar-b-q that you've ever tasted. I'm sure he could train a good chef to make that same quality of bar-b-q.

But then if you take a guy who runs a bar-b-q restaurant, and makes just as good bar-b-q, he might be able to train a chef to make that quality of bar-b-q faster or more efficiently.

So the video producer can train someone in bar-b-q II, perhaps, but only someone who has been in charge of a bar-b-q production facility would have the experience level necessary to train in bar-b-q III, where you are delivering the same level of quality but also in a higher quantity. Because after all, the III-level skills generally increase the duration of the effect, decrease the cool-down, increase the quantity, etc. It's not necessarily that the effect is better, there's just *more of it,* delivered faster, etc.

To *consistently* make bar-b-q that good in a production environment, and deliver it on-time to waiting customers, is another skill entirely... one that the video producer would not know.

Likewise a professional SE Asian chef might be able to do a better job of teaching a fellow chef the cooking of SE Asian food, than you can. And if he knew some computer stuff, he might be able to train people to tinker with a computer, but you'd probably be better at training technicians how to repair specific types of computers than him. To put it another way, you can probably teach SE Asian Cooking I or II, but he can teach III. You can teach Computer Repair III, he might be able to teach I or II.

But my argument is you can go and hire a SE Asian Chef level III if you want to. Meanwhile, I cannot find a single BO on the exchange who has High Yield Torpedoes III or Scramble Sensors III (for example... obviously there are other skills that also cannot be found).

I know I'm kind of contradicting some of my previous posts, but having thought about it further I can now see both sides of the argument better. I'm not saying I was wrong before, per se, but I think it's a gray area and the people who disagree have a perfectly valid point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-02-2010, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by Kyias View Post
It was never intended for say, a science officer to be able to train their BO's High Yield 3. The intention is to make people TRADE their BO's to another captain (tactical) who CAN train them for you...thus creating a dependence between the three class types and keeping you from "having it all" so to speak.

The problem is, you can't trade BO's you already activated right now...but I did read in one of the state of the game dealios that they do intend to change this.

Again, hopefully this will get the thread bck ON topic for discussion and away from the childish flaming shown thus far.
Fully agreed! I hope to see that feature added soon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-03-2010, 05:35 AM
I see the OP's point but I don't agree.

First allowing everyone to train HY3 defeats the purpose of the system. Currently it makes it unique to Tactical captains. Tactical captains SHOULD be the best and more skilled at tactical abilities. An science officer shouldn't have more knowledge about tactical abilities than a captain who specializes in it. This also means a Tactical captain shouldn't know more about sensor jamming than a Science captain.

If it's made available to everyone then why even have the unlock system? Just put them on random BO's and be done with the whole training system.

As for trading BOs, I don't agree with that idea either. Why would anyone bother taking these skills to unlock training when they can just have one person in their fleet train everyone's BO's with the best skills and respec out of it? Now dozens or more people have the Rank 3 ability and it just cost one person a few credits to respec.

Unless it's taken into consideration with respecs, unlocking to train your own officers will end up being a joke anyway. You'll be able to train all of your Rank 3 skills and then respec out of it to something else unless they require you to have the skill for your BO to be able to use it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-03-2010, 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by Dakirn View Post
I see the OP's point but I don't agree.

Unless it's taken into consideration with respecs, unlocking to train your own officers will end up being a joke anyway. You'll be able to train all of your Rank 3 skills and then respec out of it to something else unless they require you to have the skill for your BO to be able to use it.
Unless, as is their custom, they charge you actual money for respecs...there, problem "solved"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-03-2010, 07:24 AM
I love this thread. I should archive it myself for my own personal views.

I didn't do enough reading, and I get called on it.
The OP didn't do enough reading, can't admit that he's wrong.
Used snarky, holier than thou attitude, half heartedly apologized for it, then spat in my face about it.
I get an infraction for comparing your actions to that of a baboon.
I'm actually called an idiot, and I did not cry to a mod about it.
I'm not saying I'm the better man, because quite frankly, I'm a jerk, and I'll be the first one to tell you that.
But again, your attitude leaves a lot to be desired, and is the whole basis for me treating you the way I did.
Have I been wrong before? You bet! And I will be again, of that I can be assured.

The dentist/proctologist comparison for your argument had to be the worst combination choice ever to help state your case. That guy could be the best dentist in history, and no one would ever use his services. I wouldn't want him putting his fingers in my mouth. He's a proctologist. Countless layers of rubber gloves would not be enough. No amount of hand washing would be enough.

I am still at a loss to understand why you believe you are better than everyone else, and why you believe your game problem deserves far more attention than it ever should have gotten.
The game is rife with minor problems like this. This appears to be no different than the rest.

Some humble pie may do you some good.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-03-2010, 01:19 PM
They just need to change the description. If any class can train any BO, it'll just take away from what little class definition there is already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-08-2010, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by DreamGoddessLindsey View Post
I stopped right there.

Just open your eyes and look at the skills.

Don't tell Cryptic to fix something and hold your hand through character creation. Read what the skills do. Is that really too much to ask? Am I the only person who reads directions in gaming?
Unfortunately, looking at the skill is the entire problem.

If I am an Engineer, Science and Tactical skills should not tell me I will gain the ability to train them. Ever. It shouldn't be written there. At all. If these statements appear, they are false. There is no argument against that. The statement is wrong; as in, not true based on the condition of my class.

1) Editing the trees so that they don't list false information wouldn't be difficult. In fact, editing text is probably one of the easiest things the developers could do.

2) At the moment, skill points are irrecoverable, so misleading or contradictory information has the potential to do irreversible damage (pending skill respec).

3) Sulu told me how it is in one line of dialogue 20 levels ago? The skill tree staring me in the face constantly implies something different. The way this game came off the assembly line, either of them (or both) are just as likely to be wrong.

4) Responding to hostility with hostility makes you look just as mean an ignorant as the person you're attacking.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
03-08-2010, 05:23 AM
we do seriously need to be able to train the level III abilities the captain gets to train his people in ANY slot available to the officer we are training. this would make it easier to eliminate the crapy skills and keep the good ones end game.

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