Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
03-09-2010, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
I've shown more insight than you have, and you've only cemented my new opinion of you as an utter fool, considering that I haven't simply made some appeal to my own authority of having spent three years training with swords and other weapons for the purpose of historical recreation, and had done with it.



And I've watched people use all sorts of medieval weapons and fall foul of their inability to use them. Swords most of all, it's absolutely nowhere near as intuitive or clean as people like to think they are.

There are parts that aren't needed, the internal spikes certainly, but if the bat'leth is that poorly designed then so is the katana, since both have very specific strengths and applications.



And now you're arguing against yourself for some reason, considering you have to train with absolutely any weapon at all to become useful with it. Without training you should just be using a club, or short spear and shield.



And yet funnily enough that sentiment doesn't apply to your arguments.



You've backed up nothing either, and now you're playing the thin skinned victim despite no real aggression on my part, so from this point on you can go with the knowledge that I have absolutely no respect for your simpering whinings.



No it isn't. It's recognised by uneducated people like you who are happy to lap up the katana myth Japan and Japanophiles make a lot of money foisting about, but the simple fact is that thanks to the quality of materials they had to work with and a culture so isolated it could cheerfully wallow in stagnation, the katana is a weapon that had to be hugely overengineered just to be equal to its contemporaries from China to Europe. Fine it may be, but it's no more fine than any weapon designed for nothing but slashing.



Ignorance. Absolutely nothing but ignorance. The katana is a straight up single edged slashing weapon with limited characteristics for use against armour and little real versatility beyond that. Useful in Japan due to a total lack of rigid metal armours or shields and a culture based around ritualised single combat even in large battles until the Monguls arrived.

It isn't one of the best. It's nowhere close to being one of the best. It is no more the best than any sabre or scimitar used under the same conditions the katana was designed in. They even started tweaking it when they got their hands on lots of Chinese daos, they liked how much more sturdy they were.
! *Runs and fines an extinguisher* Must smother flames with a dance! and a Smoky dance at that. *performs danc in sig to ward of rageflame from 104wrd*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
03-09-2010, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
There are many problems with the bat'leth.

First is leverage. The way it curves and you have to place your hands on the curve to use it will actually make the weapon awkward to properly swing and exert enough force to overcome someone armed with a different weapon.
It should certainly be straight at the grip. Like you said, the curve doesn't help anything at all in terms of trying to recieve or exert force.

Quote:
Another problem is that the weapons curves inward. The one place where you would have enough force to actually get a solid attack with that weapon curves inward. If you could actually get someone in that curve, it would hurt, but anyone who comes inside that area could use, I don't know, a dagger maybe, and stab you with that before you can get them with your abomination made in metal.
The actual sword of Kahless was way better in that regard...it had a point in the middle to stab people with when you thrust the weapon at them! That bit about the dagger is somewhat wishful thinking though, since you'll be pulling out about the only weapon you can get that has a shorter range than your opponent.

The curve is, like above, largely pointless.

Quote:
The sharp bits at the end would hurt if you swung them hard enough, but due to the shape of the weapon and the horrible places for the handgrips your swing will be very awkward and easily parried.
They've made a half effort with those points, they either shouldn't be there or actually stick out more so you can properly stab your enemy.

Quote:
And forget about 'attacking and defending at the same time' with this waste of steel. You would spend some much time moving your hand placement around that a swordsman, who will keep his hand in the same area on, will have much better reactions to your openings.
Like many polearms the bat'leth against a sword would be effective for counterattacking, since parrying on one side makes it simple to throw the other end of the weapon into the enemy. The idea of reacting to the openings is a strange one, since a bat'leth would require tiny movements to parry any attack and would have very few openings to take advantage of. It covers a huge amount of your body and you don't even have to worry about your hands (you'd think Klingons would be more courageous than that....).

Quote:
And way the weapon has been demonstrated to be used on screen makes the intelligence of the wielder at best questionable. How many ears have been lost to this weapon? Seriously, the way it is used the weapon is almost as much of a threat to the wielder as to the opponent.
Oh the way they use it on the show definitely suggests they're trying to commit suicide. I can't actually think of any weapon used properly in Star Trek actually....

Quote:
In short, the bat'leth deserves to be either melted down or hung on a wall in museum of poorly thought out weapons. Not saying that someone who is really, really good with a bat'leth wouldn't be able to fight with it, but the same could be said with the aforementioned hockey stick.
The bat'leth isn't quite that bad. It's certainly not brilliant or even good, but against a sword, a weapon often massively romantically overrated, it can defend itself way too easily and get way too close to be messing about with unless you're in heavy armour, in which case you could pretty much take it on with your bare hands.

Quote:
I would personally prefer a rapier myself.
Certainly makes the most sense considering the environments of Trek.

Also, why do people keep saying Sulu used a katana? It....well it isn't a katana.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
03-09-2010, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValinAntilles View Post
! *Runs and fines an extinguisher* Must smother flames with a dance! and a Smoky dance at that. *performs danc in sig to ward of rageflame from 104wrd*
*shrug*
I'm overstating my argument a bit, but I'm not going to be friendly to someone acting like that. Ravenstein makes orders of magnitude more sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
03-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
The curve is, like above, largely pointless.
Hah! Unintentional pun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
Also, why do people keep saying Sulu used a katana? It....well it isn't a katana.
He did, at one point, use a katana. If you're thinking of his epee`, then yes, you're right, an epee` is not a katana, and he did use an epee` in more instances than he used a katana, but I distinctly remember a katana coming into play at one point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
03-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHazard View Post
He did, at one point, use a katana. If you're thinking of his epee`, then yes, you're right, an epee` is not a katana, and he did use an epee` in more instances than he used a katana, but I distinctly remember a katana coming into play at one point.
I don't remember him ever using a Katna but rather a fencing foil. In fact if I remember correctly in his biography he said he purposefully stayed away from he Katana so as to not present a racial stereotype.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
03-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
I've shown more insight than you have, and you've only cemented my new opinion of you as an utter fool, considering that I haven't simply made some appeal to my own authority of having spent three years training with swords and other weapons for the purpose of historical recreation, and had done with it.
...so let me get this straight. You are accusing me of being an idiot because I have people who actually know stuff about weapons on my side? You're literally making **** up. I don't believe for a second that you've actually studied weaponry for any number of years... unless you're SCA, of course. That would fit perfectly with the arrogant ass attitude and allow you to 'train' without actually knowing jack ****.

In any case, apart from the general authority of, you know, everybody else in existence, who actually uses weapons, the people I know personally still have more experience with weapons than you claim to. I would take their word over theirs any day. And if you ever saw them in action, you would too.

Quote:
And I've watched people use all sorts of medieval weapons and fall foul of their inability to use them. Swords most of all, it's absolutely nowhere near as intuitive or clean as people like to think they are.

There are parts that aren't needed, the internal spikes certainly, but if the bat'leth is that poorly designed then so is the katana, since both have very specific strengths and applications.
See, I've never seen anybody who couldn't use a sword blame it on the sword. People can usually recognize the difference between a poor weapon and them just being bad. And that goes double for people who actually fight. Only an idiot would blame his own failings on his weapon. And despite that fact, the Bat'leth is universally despised for it's poor design quality, namely the fact that it doesn't have strengths and weaknesses. Just weaknesses. It's not just a few people who don't know what to do with it.

Quote:
And now you're arguing against yourself for some reason, considering you have to train with absolutely any weapon at all to become useful with it. Without training you should just be using a club, or short spear and shield.
...that's exactly my point. You can be good with anything by training and you can be bad with anything by not training. Certainly, somebody who actually used the Bat'leth a lot for any reason would totally roll over somebody who had just picked up a sword, but somebody who trained with swords would beat the crud out of somebody who trained with a Bat'leth. Because Bat'leths suck.



Quote:
And yet funnily enough that sentiment doesn't apply to your arguments.
So essentially, you want me to pretend that a crappy weapon is as good as an awesome one by using the 'your word against mine' argument. But it's not my word. It's everybody's, including all the authorities in the subject. You're the only person in this thread (and probably in RL too) who actually believes that the Bat'leth is a superior weapon.

Quote:
You've backed up nothing either, and now you're playing the thin skinned victim despite no real aggression on my part, so from this point on you can go with the knowledge that I have absolutely no respect for your simpering whinings.
...right. You're totally not aggressive at all. Just look at all those kind and polite posts that you made throughout the thread...



Quote:
No it isn't. It's recognised by uneducated people like you who are happy to lap up the katana myth Japan and Japanophiles make a lot of money foisting about, but the simple fact is that thanks to the quality of materials they had to work with and a culture so isolated it could cheerfully wallow in stagnation, the katana is a weapon that had to be hugely overengineered just to be equal to its contemporaries from China to Europe. Fine it may be, but it's no more fine than any weapon designed for nothing but slashing.
It sounds to me like you just have a chip on your shoulder about the Japanese for some reason. Chinese decent maybe? I really don't care. Even if you have a good reason to dislike them, this was the wrong place to post. And I suspect that you don't. You're just another obnoxious loser.


Quote:
Ignorance. Absolutely nothing but ignorance. The katana is a straight up single edged slashing weapon with limited characteristics for use against armour and little real versatility beyond that. Useful in Japan due to a total lack of rigid metal armours or shields and a culture based around ritualised single combat even in large battles until the Monguls arrived.

It isn't one of the best. It's nowhere close to being one of the best. It is no more the best than any sabre or scimitar used under the same conditions the katana was designed in. They even started tweaking it when they got their hands on lots of Chinese daos, they liked how much more sturdy they were.
And here, you show your complete ignorance. The katana was never designed for use against actual armor because the Japanese didn't have any armor beyond studded leather. Now, you could make arguments about their general level of technology, or their aptitude for warfare, but you cannot argue that the katana is somehow inferior for that. It did exactly the job it was designed to do, and it did it very well.

It also exhibited extremely advanced craftsmanship for it's time. Certainly, you could bludgeon through armor better with a heavy sword from the west, but compared to the katana, those swords were little more than giant metal clubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
*shrug*
I'm overstating my argument a bit, but I'm not going to be friendly to someone acting like that. Ravenstein makes orders of magnitude more sense.
Wow, Ravenstein makes exactly my argument (but much more forcefully) and you respond nicely and tell her that she's making lots of sense. And not too long after nerd raging against me... I think it's pretty clear what's going on here

You just found out Ravenstein was a girl, didn't you? Bad news, dude, she's already got a boyfriend.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
03-09-2010, 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHazard View Post
He did, at one point, use a katana. If you're thinking of his epee`, then yes, you're right, an epee` is not a katana, and he did use an epee` in more instances than he used a katana, but I distinctly remember a katana coming into play at one point.
Sulu used a Katana in the new movie (or a sort-of Katana anyway). That's what everybody's talking about. To the best of my knowledge, he only ever used a fencing blade in the show.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
03-09-2010, 02:54 PM
I would actually rate the katana pretty low on my 'long blade desirability list'. Khorak already lists many of my complaints about the katana.

As a review they were made of poor quality of materials forcing the Japanese swordsmiths to overengineer their forging to get the same quality as a European, Chinese, or Indian swordsmith. The on hand iron materials in Japan were of very poor quality and required extensive working to harden, especially in comparison to materials in other locations. This poor material quality was the major reason nobody in Japan used metal armor.

Their slightly curving blade, although better for slashing attacks on the proper edge, made thrust attacks less effective and awkward as well as reverse side slashes with the opposite edge. To penetrate armor, you want to use a thrust. Slashes are also more likely to cause bloody, but not disabling or lethal wounds, then thrusts. If you want to put your opponent down for sure, use a thrusting weapon. Would be fine against an unarmored opponent, but rather ineffective against an armored enemy. Which was fine for what other opponents a Japanese warrior would have been facing.

The reason katanas have become so popular I think are the same reasons the Klingon bat'leth has become popular. Both are more ritualistic weapons and as such their fighting styles have been ritualized and are more for spectacle then combat practicality. Both also have featured prominently in fictional media, katana in anime which in turn has influenced modern pop-culture and bat'leth in Star Trek.

Overall, given my choice of long blade weapons I would choose a saber, rapier, longsword, or gladius (or other short sword) over a katana. In a real medieval battle, I would actually go with a spear, halberd, or lance however.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
03-09-2010, 08:24 PM
I actually took Kendo for a number of years, including a year spent studying in the orient, and the Katana is a good all round weapon as far as bladed weapons go. It was fun but bladed weapons are obsolete in today's battlefield and thats one of the reasons why after a few years i dropped Kendo to focus more on hand to hand. Besides in real life if you have to protect yourself what is the likelihood that you'll be toting a Japanese long sword on you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
03-09-2010, 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenstein View Post
I would actually rate the katana pretty low on my 'long blade desirability list'. Khorak already lists many of my complaints about the katana.

As a review they were made of poor quality of materials forcing the Japanese swordsmiths to overengineer their forging to get the same quality as a European, Chinese, or Indian swordsmith. The on hand iron materials in Japan were of very poor quality and required extensive working to harden, especially in comparison to materials in other locations. This poor material quality was the major reason nobody in Japan used metal armor.

Their slightly curving blade, although better for slashing attacks on the proper edge, made thrust attacks less effective and awkward as well as reverse side slashes with the opposite edge. To penetrate armor, you want to use a thrust. Slashes are also more likely to cause bloody, but not disabling or lethal wounds, then thrusts. If you want to put your opponent down for sure, use a thrusting weapon. Would be fine against an unarmored opponent, but rather ineffective against an armored enemy. Which was fine for what other opponents a Japanese warrior would have been facing.

The reason katanas have become so popular I think are the same reasons the Klingon bat'leth has become popular. Both are more ritualistic weapons and as such their fighting styles have been ritualized and are more for spectacle then combat practicality. Both also have featured prominently in fictional media, katana in anime which in turn has influenced modern pop-culture and bat'leth in Star Trek.

Overall, given my choice of long blade weapons I would choose a saber, rapier, longsword, or gladius (or other short sword) over a katana. In a real medieval battle, I would actually go with a spear, halberd, or lance however.
Well that's fine. There's certainly an argument to be made in favor of rapiers over katanas, and while I would prefer a katana myself, I can see how one might prefer a saber or a longsword (I assume here that you are not speaking of cavalry sabers). But not a Bat'leth. And Khorak's been an ass about it since he first posted on here.
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