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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-10-2010, 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koriel View Post
When insulting multiple geeks, use the plural.

Sujatlh 'e' yImev toDSaHpu'! Hab SoSpu'ra' QuchDu'.

Is an insult a insult if the person insulted does not realize they were insulted and so does not react to it?

It only makes the insulter look stupid...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-10-2010, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAK0 View Post
Can you name a official source for the Klingon Language?

There is none, the Klingon language is made up, just like Elvish, and the language of the Navi.

Your statement makes no sense, since there is nobody who uses Klingon for commerece, communication and disimination of information in the execution of everyday life it is about as official as the language of Wookies.

So if the source is from a dubious website, a dubious college who offers the useless language as a elective or a dubious book, it is all dubious.
Some background:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Marc_Okrand
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingonese

As the Star Trek writers do note, they deviated from Doohan and Okrand's original designs as time went on for convenience.

Regarding 'Elvish', see J.R.R. Tolkien's appendices to Lord of the Rings.

I'm not disagreeing that fictional languages are useless in the real world. But they are useful for the purposes of immersion in a game.

===

Still wondering how this diminishes anyone's gameplay or entertainment. Is it that it's too geeky for players of a Star Trek game?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-10-2010, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
FYI:

-mathematics is a made-up language
-English is a made-up language
-C++ is a made-up language

What is a language? It is a collection of words (vocabulary) with a set of rules (syntax, grammar) for using those words.

(yada yada yaday)
.
While the above are languages, only English falls in to the scope in which Klingon would be placed.

The other two "languages" are not used in the same manner that English and in theory Klingon would be.

I will not explain to you why C++ and Mathmatics are not in the same scope as Englsh, that should be pretty prevelent.

The difference between a real language of communication and a fake is the use, almost nobody uses Klingon in daily activities; you walk into the grocery store and tell the clerk in Klingon what you want you will probably get slapped in the face.

Just like Ancient Babylonian, nobody speaks it anymore; and it is a real langauge that did exist.

Regarding Elvish, again it is not used in any form of commerce or in daily life by anyone. It is just a made up bunch of words.

lan·guage   /ˈlæŋgwɪdʒ/ Show Spelled[lang-gwij]
–noun
1.a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are of the same community or nation, the same geographical area, or the same cultural tradition: the two languages of Belgium; a Bantu language; the French language; the Yiddish language.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAK0 View Post
The difference between a real language of communication and a fake is the use, almost nobody uses Klingon in daily activities; you walk into the grocery store and tell the clerk in Klingon what you want you will probably get slapped in the face.
But we're playing a game... (And a game that already has Klingon language in it.)

So why can't 'incorrect Klingon phrases' that are already in-game be corrected to match the existing specifications of the Klingon language? And perhaps more Klingon language phrases added in, for flavour?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-10-2010, 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
But we're playing a game... (And a game that already has Klingon language in it.)

So why can't 'incorrect Klingon phrases' that are already in-game be corrected to match the existing specifications of the Klingon language? And perhaps more Klingon language phrases added in, for flavour?
Back to the topic at hand... there is no reason.

But do they make up the language or only use the phrases in the movies?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-10-2010, 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAK0 View Post
Back to the topic at hand... there is no reason.

But do they make up the language or only use the phrases in the movies?
Who is 'they'? If you mean Cryptic, apparently they made up the mokbara phrase (with a phrase that does not match existing canon), which is what the original post is about.

If you mean Doohan and Okrand, they made up the basis of the language, and then subsequent writers added onto it as they went along.

So, in my opinion, Cryptic should take from what the Star Trek writers already did.

===

Regarding your definition of language, the 'community or nation' in question is fictional. Yes, we all know that. We all agree. These are fictional languages and useless in real. Again, we're talking about a game, not real. And we're talking about adherence to the existing language (the existing canon) -- and building onto it if they wish -- rather than altering existing canonical phrases.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-10-2010, 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
Who is 'they'? If you mean Cryptic, apparently they made up the mokbara phrase (with a phrase that does not match existing canon), which is what the original post is about.
I think he was talking about the Klingon used in the official, canon movies, is it all accurate as per the KLI?

Personally, I'm not surprised at some of the hostility in this thread, the immature, insecure nerdy among us - and /noone/ playing a Star Trek online multiplayer game is not nerdy to some extent - will always need someone else to point at to make them feel better about themselves.

Personally, the gigantic nerdiness of being fluent in Klingon is beyond awesome to me, I could never even learn French.

And yes, if it were to be done, best it be done... correctly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-10-2010, 09:43 PM
The thought of being corrected on Klingon grammar was one of the things holding me back from buying this game. Anything Star Trek is a bit difficult to approach because there are people out there who actually know Klingon, understand Andorian wedding ceremonies, and feel very strongly that anything other than what they know is wrong.

The problem is that it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to have the same level of knowledge, even people who are create parts of the franchise.

Frankly the Star Trek shows have never been very consistent, which makes it unreasonable to expect consistency anywhere else. In the Star Trek I grew up with, Klingon sounded exactly like English only spoken by second-rate stage-actors. I do appreciate that someone went to the trouble of making up a language for the movies and the later series, but it's still just a literary device to make Klingons seem more alien and exotic -- the grammar kind of doesn't matter as long as it seems there might be a pattern to it.

If you need a canonical explanation: it's just a different dialect. Like American English and British English (I used to work with a bunch of British soldiers, and while the officers were perfectly understandable I have no idea what language working-class Brits speak, because it's certainly not english in any form). Maybe the quote is in the Klingon equivalent of King James' English. It's pretty normal for certain phrases to be in odd or archaic language.

At any rate, complaining about Klingon grammar is the sort of thing that passes into "scary" territory. It's beyond fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
03-10-2010, 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAK0 View Post
Can you name a official source for the Klingon Language?

There is none, the Klingon language is made up, just like Elvish, and the language of the Navi.

Your statement makes no sense, since there is nobody who uses Klingon for commerece, communication and disimination of information in the execution of everyday life it is about as official as the language of Wookies.

So if the source is from a dubious website, a dubious college who offers the useless language as a elective or a dubious book, it is all dubious.
Marc Okrand is the official source of the Klingon language. He's a linguist hired by Paramount to develop the language for use in the movies and tv series.

He's written numerous reference works for the language including The Klingon Dictionary, The Klingon Way, Klingon for the Galactic Traveller, Conversational Klingon & Power Klingon audio casettes, the Klingon interactive PC game, and various other things like trading cards and pamphlets. All are copyrighted by Paramount.

Klingon has it's own body of literature and several books have been written in the language including a few Shakespeare plays, like Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing. Songs and plays have been performed in the language, including Dicken's A Christmas Carol.

Members of the Klingon Language Institute correspond with each other in the language and hold annual gatherings. Universities have taught courses in Klingon.

Various other products have used Klingon. You can set your Google browser to display in Klingon. I have a Timex digital watch with controls labelled in Klingon.

DaH bIQIp 'e' Datlhoj'a'?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
03-11-2010, 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoa-jin View Post
So where would fine the proper grammar and syntax for translation? Frankly, I'd love to have it...even a series of phrase roots/trunks that I can mix and match words in and out of the create sensible sentences or phrases.

Keep in mind, I barely speak any second language above the level of a 18 month old...French, Spanish...even Swahili(yeah, Swahili ).
The Klingon Dictionary by Marc Okrand is also great. I use it to name my ships (My wife supports my huge Klingon-ness right now so she got it for me off Amazon as a gift, along with the IKS Gorkon novels by Keith DeCandido).

I recommended in beta that Cryptic should contact KLI, because THOSE folks know their Klingon better than anyone else, and Marc Okrand says they do too
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