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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
03-21-2010, 09:20 PM
The federation isn't the shapeshifters? You done the mission with Admiral Zelle.
oh yeah, Spoiler alert.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
03-21-2010, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vllad
Some that come to mind.

*The base stats of Fed Ships are better then Klingon ships. Please see the link below.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress...erchartv19.png
That sheet is not up to date...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
03-22-2010, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luepert View Post
The federation isn't the shapeshifters? You done the mission with Admiral Zelle.
oh yeah, Spoiler alert.
Of course there are shapeshifters in the Federation. The number one contributing factor of this is the presence of a storyline. The fed have shifters because the shifters are the big nasty bad guys so it makes for "interesting quests."

Klingons have no shifters because they currently, sadly, have no story. If/when they get storyline and missions, they will get shifters among their upper echelon. Thinking otherwise is naive.

At any rate it isn't much of an argument for the Feds being the bad guys, any argument that the Klingons are bad guys is equally silly. Individuals are good or bad, organizations are the sum of their parts.

OMG there are shape shifters on the Fed side!?! This is entirely missing the point, even more devious is that the Federation has LOTS AND LOTS of politicians, now THAT is scary.

The Klingons have nasty raiders and horrible killers.

Well for every Politician (or fine, shape shifter, whatever you like) the Fed has, they've got dozens of Captains looking to explore and protect their people.

For every ******* in the KDF there are dozens of honorable warriors looking to protect their people and traditions.

Point is, it's really moot to discuss this at all in STO, arguably more so than in other MMOs with multiple sides (CoX aside). It is even more moot to talk about it here where we're discussing PvP balance.

Speaking of which. I'm a veteran MMO player, but new to STO. I've got characters on both sides, but none higher than LTC. My experience is limited but I might have something else constructive to add.

Public quests (Fleet Action?). It's silly to talk about this stuff in a PvP thread, but I think it is very relevant. The only Fleet Actions I've seen on the Klingon side are ripoffs of the Fed ones (Defending the position against artillery on the ground and clearing the minefield in space) however I noticed a very significant difference.

Fed side you can do all of these mostly solo, only hanging around other ships/players for fun or a few key parts. I did them on Klingon side tonight and holy crap was it different.

Ground: Same map, generally the same mobs, but the respawn rate was insane! As was the amount of stuns and knockbacks. Even though it is mostly identical to the Fed version the engineers and medics are insane, it is a very long battle for a single klink to take one down with the constant shield boosts, knockbacks from grenades, and flaking phaser turret fire. During this time you are inevitably going to get respawns as for some reason they seem to pop up at 3x the rate of the Fed version.

Space: Same map, generally the same mobs, but the packs are insane! The space is extremely densly populated with ships, everywhere. I didn't even think it would be possible to have enough Miranda class frigates to make someone sweat, but damn was I wrong.

Why is this relevant? Because even in the extremely limited PvE Klingons get to experience they are FORCED to team up to do well. Hell in that ground encounter we were forced to team up to have ANY forward momentum what so ever.

This is a problem that is compounded by the Federation Fleet Actions being 24/7 camped by T5 players, absolutely trivializing any of the content and the teamwork lessons that would be wrought from it.

I've fought on ground and in space on both sides. While not top tier, it is relevant. I've seen good players and good teamwork on both sides, however it is a much higher percentage on Klingon side. I find time and time again 2 factors to this.

1. Klingons are in a team environment 90% of the time, Feds are in a team environment 10% of the time. This isn't likely to change until the Klinks get real content to level in (e.g. soften them up) or until Klingon PvP Fleets get bored and transfer to Fed side. The content of both sides, and resulting playing habits/mindset, are so vastly different that it is a significant contributor to PvP balance as a whole.

2. Lack of content on the Klingon side means only the hardest core of PvP folk are going to bother being there in the first place. Now, granted, even idiots can be elitists and this will certainly account for the 1337 morons in BoPs charging headlong into a clod of Feds, but for the most part the side is going to have people used to PvPing in a team environment from past games, they will additionally be the players with the tenacity to stick out the Klingon side despite lack of content. Conversely lots of players who would be drawn to the Klingon side, but are too casual to make the commitment to grinding the same stuff over and over and over again will end up Fed side. A lot of these casual players are people with virtually zero teamwork experience in any game, this will not stop them from PvPing in their limited play time and will not stop them from *****ing about PvP on the forums while at work.


As a whole this is an MMO. Like any MMO it is a little society of a few communities. Just like where you grow up affects who you are as a person, where and how you level affects who you are as a player. That sounds a little deep, perhaps like I'm taking it too seriously, but it's a fact. Specifically it is becoming a major factor in modern game design, trying to graph a flow of play and figure out what skill set a player should have obtained at a given point at a game as well as developing the challenges to allow them to get there.

Anyway, that is my rant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
03-22-2010, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
I wonder how much of the "I'm super awsum why can't i win in PVP?" mentality of us fed players comes from the PVE content. In PVE I routinely beat swarms of klingons (and other races) single handedly, and it's only ocasionally difficult. Now I have the sence to realize that that's because the AI isn't another player with min-maxes stats, gear comprible to my own and a mind that doesn't run on a page or so if if/else statments, but maybe that's not as common a realization as it should be.
I would think it's part of the "problem". NPCs ships are often leveled to the player and the enemies are weaker than "real" player-controlled ships. In PVP, a Bird of Prey or a Raptor are "equal" in strength in theory, while in PVE, the Bird of Prey always appears in groups of three, while the Raptor is alone.

In general, the PVE part can be played alone. You can't or don't need to coordinate much. Even the auto-teamed missions don't require that much teamwork - as long as everyone is dealing with the same group of enemies, it should be beatable. And killed enemies don't respawn, unlike killed players, so once you somehow managed to destroy one enemy ship, the challenge is consistenly lowered. Kill a Klingon in PVP, and he's coming back, you just have a short reprieve and better work fast to take those other Klingons down.

The Crystal Entity mission probably exemplified best the lack of teamwork training. Not many seem to listen to the information coming from zone chat, and so the CE battle is often a futile effort. And even if people listen to chat - lots of misinformation and half-truth are spread out, so how is a player to know what will work?

It will be interesting to see how the Klingon players will deal with the Crystal Entity. Of course - the CE battle is still different from PVP. The standard tactics don't apply, and this might make it difficult again, too - most Klingon players probably more or less automatically go to the "standard" tactics during PVP and don't need much communication, they just know what to look out for, how to aid, how to group, how to focus fire.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
03-22-2010, 10:13 AM
@gryphongroin + MustrumRidcully

You both are right.

I got both Fed + Kli on top level and there is a big difference. As Klingon you need-you are forced to work in a Team if you want to be successful ,as Fed i leveled up without any Teamwork (guess except for the Fleet Actions although there wasnt much Teamwork needed too). Its a total different playstyle ,as Fed you learn through PvE to make a 1-man show while its the other way around for Klingons ...when a Fed then enters PvP the first time he is usually getting the thought of Klingons beeing overpowered because its hardly possible for a 5 man team that works 5x 1-man shows to kill a 5 man team that works as a team. Im not saying there arent any Feds out there that whipe the floor with our mostly PUGs on the Klingon side but with the high ammount of Fed players you get to face them not that often and its hard to get into such a group as Fed because they usually start out as premade. Once in a week i take a look over at Fed side for PvP but the groups i usually get consist still of those people that either do PvP for the first time or dont care to learn from earlier made mistake and instead smacktalk in Zone against Klingons and crying for the nerfbat on the forums.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
03-22-2010, 03:29 PM
The majority of Federation players are PvPing for sake of Marks of Honor, not for the sake of PvP. If Cryptic lessed Marks of Honor and more Marks of Exploration, then PvP will be back to the PvPers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
03-23-2010, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grignak View Post
You know when you are right you are right I say they should tone down the amount of rewards the klingons get from pvp and force them to do PvE missions to get the bulk of their equipment and credits.....oh wait.
Have you played a Klingon? If you have then you know there aren't any PvE missions to do. There is only PvP related missions. If the Klingon get toned down then RA5's will not have any good PvP in the near future. Since I have my RA5 and second Fed to Captain I have been playing my Klingon nearly everyday to get her up to BG so I can help with top level pvping. It is not as fast as I would like it to go. Not as fast as it has been on the Fed Side, but she is a commander now and on her way to Captain.

I see a nerf coming to Klingon, and that nerf is going to kill the pvp F v K while Klingon will move to more K v K leaving the Feds in the dust.

Careful what you wish for!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
03-23-2010, 08:11 AM
Airwen, I think you kind of missed the point. read the part you quoted again, especially the last two words.

-ken
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
03-23-2010, 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizhel
@gryphongroin + MustrumRidcully

You both are right.

I got both Fed + Kli on top level and there is a big difference. As Klingon you need-you are forced to work in a Team if you want to be successful ,as Fed i leveled up without any Teamwork (guess except for the Fleet Actions although there wasnt much Teamwork needed too). Its a total different playstyle ,as Fed you learn through PvE to make a 1-man show while its the other way around for Klingons ...when a Fed then enters PvP the first time he is usually getting the thought of Klingons beeing overpowered because its hardly possible for a 5 man team that works 5x 1-man shows to kill a 5 man team that works as a team. Im not saying there arent any Feds out there that whipe the floor with our mostly PUGs on the Klingon side but with the high ammount of Fed players you get to face them not that often and its hard to get into such a group as Fed because they usually start out as premade. Once in a week i take a look over at Fed side for PvP but the groups i usually get consist still of those people that either do PvP for the first time or dont care to learn from earlier made mistake and instead smacktalk in Zone against Klingons and crying for the nerfbat on the forums.
I agree, since you can play the Fed from 0 to 45 and never group with anyone you play more by yourself, on the Klingon side however since everything is all about pvp war and no roses for you. Klingon team up because they know they can win and are bred to team up so naturally they do better. Klingon also have pvp quests that if you die you get points when you complete those quests which eases the pain of getting out by yourself away from the team.

I try to stick with my team on the Klingon side as much as i can, and we talk about how we are going to take out the Feds on our team chat before we do anything. When I play my Fed I get one of these teams on rare occasions when we actually win.
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