Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-26-2010, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.
Sometimes, yes I do open with a stun shot. It is one of three effective beginning tactics for using the technician kit. I guess I am exploiting because I consider this one of my successful tactical approaches?

Every engineer should carry a stun weapon, because engineers do not have a stun ability that comes with their kits. Using a stun weapon as an engineer isn't a balance issue, that's how to play the class with the kits they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
Don't patronize me, regarding pvp experience and think you make a strong case, i was most likely pvp'ing in mmo's before you where born, and in all games i have played there have been people like you, telling thousands of people that think a game is not good or fair that it is, that changing it would be a bad idea.
A boast like that could be accurate pointed towards anyone else, but this isn't your lucky day. As a former Origin employee who helped play test and develop UO PvP beginning in 1996-1997 alpha, I would be the guy who has been PvPing longer in MMOs - as I assisted in the development of the first PvP MMO Ultima Online. But that really has nothing to do with the point.

Making changes to a system that is balanced needs to be well thought out, because the worst thing that can happen is to break the existing balance. Ability/Kit/Faction Balance isn't really the issue in STO ground PvP, the issues in ground PvP are more subtle IMO.

For example, there is no easy way to be a healer in STO. I have to work to shield heal a friend as an engineer or potentially open myself up to WM to pass on a ED to someone whose been hit. Have you ever noticed how science folks only use AOE heals (if they have a heal at all) because the target heals are hard as hell to use effectively? This points to a more general problem, the PvP system in general (but it is more obvious in ground than in space) in STO does not favor teamwork in any of its abilities. Being a good team mate in STO is hard as hell, and one can point back to the Equipment Diagnostics issue we are discussing as another such example.

Science folks can remove exposes from themselves. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do that easily for teammates who are standing stunned around them? Think about how many of the annoying ground PvP aspects are specific to not having a potential counter by the guy standing next to you. In most PvP games, if you are in trouble and I'm right there, I can take an immediate action to do something potentially useful about it and help someone out regardless of my class/character. STO - not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
You as them are terrified it will change or terrified broken items you depend on will actually be fixed.
I do not agree with your assessment of the problem with ground PvP, that isn't the same as saying that improvements shouldn't be made.

There are no significant balance issues in STO ground PvP because each class has a strength and weakness, and no class overpowers another. That is by definition what every MMO wants in PvP. Balance is not an Ivory Tower.

For example, weapons malfunction a tactical has a bigger impact in preventing them from shooting, but if they have points in a melee skill a WM tactical will 100% of the time hit my engineer in melee before I can hit them - thus leaving me the one stunned and potentially exposed. These give and takes must count for something, and I believe they do. Weapons malfunction effectiveness is reduced each subsequent use against the same target. It also has a specific kit ability cure. These are existing drawback of WM. How can a debuff that can be specifically fixed and comes with diminishing returns already be overpowered? If you use it, you know it isn't the "I win" button, otherwise I'd be the greatest PvPer in STO (and I'm hardly that).

So what is the issue? Well, I believe the problem isn't Weapons Malfunction, it is Equipment Diagnostics, which should not have such a long cool down so it would be useful in helping other teammates.

As designed, I believe the entire STO ground PvP system has a perception of being broken because of the rather powerful offensive bonuses that are achieved by teamwork that are balanced against the complete absence of defensive bonuses that are achieved with teamwork. All the skill/ability/race trait/etc nerfs in the world will not make STO ground PvP more fun for people until offensive teamwork can be balanced against defensive teamwork in an effective way.

I think that is the only fairly obvious problem with ground PvP. Most of the other issues are usually a byproduct of that core problem. In other words, people who suggest nerfing this or that haven't really studied the problem, they are focused on the symptoms (and I accuse you of doing exactly that). Since you are a self proclaimed super MMO vet PvPer, perhaps this post will give you something to consider you had previously not examined thoroughly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-26-2010, 03:07 PM
When someone equip a melee weapon or go out unarmed they plan to do melee, rifle butt however was probably designed to get away from melee types so they could continue shooting. But people use it as their primary attack to get expose so they can shoot their one exloit secondary attack.

Yes it's a symptom, i still dont think removing Hold and expose (lesser the second actually) and keep knockback and add a short imunity to knockdown from rifle butt to victims would do anything than improve the overall of the game.

It don't change any balance it hit everyone equally, and people have to make a clear choice if they are going to be shooters or melee specilists least in that slot.

nor does i think bringing special abilities that break the general rule in line with other abilities, any ability that have a duration equal to cooldown is in reality without any cooldown at all. A cooldown should allways outweight the effect if not you have a single hit button tactic going. And since you have UO experience you know this from the early spells there, root wait hit, root wait hit. people even macroed it and leveled with computers running and they on vacations. but enough about UO it pionered and oh well today we all would laugh if they had released something like it.

The symptom is that in some maps especially lower levels you can find 10 people running in circles around eachother trying to see who can hit the harest with the back of their guns.

This symptom need to be adressed since it makes people leave maps half done from boredom and the other hlaf sitting forever waiting for a new victim to enter they all can knock silly with their guns and the only shot fired is the one that exploit the exposed new arrival.

I been on both sides of the table and in all honesty none of them are much fun in the long run, when the inital hillarious laugh is over its back to boredom again, fixing queues are a priority so maps allways start balanced in numbers. removing rifle but as primary melee attack should be next on the list, how can be discussed but as you said before if you want to swing use a knife or sword or club or a squeeking tribble just dont depend on your firearms for clubbing your oponent to death.


Somone mentioned there is several types of hold and all have their own immunities there is no other explanation to how we sometimes get held without ability to move at all and if we use anything to break it we are emediately held again or if there is any immunity at all involved.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-26-2010, 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post

So what is the issue? Well, I believe the problem isn't Weapons Malfunction, it is Equipment Diagnostics, which should not have such a long cool down so it would be useful in helping other teammates.
Weapon batteries have a 15 second cooldown and clear Weapon Malfunction now, so I don't really see it as an issue. I do think the engy cleanse should be an aoe though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-26-2010, 04:52 PM
The refresh cooldown between shots is terrible... We need to be able to kill fast against groups... Don't slow us down... The worst thing you can do is make as simple as "the biggest number wins" and that's what happens when you make it tougher for us to shoot...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-26-2010, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUB
what you want a focus on, new ships new clothes are all good, but this game orbit pvp, ground and space, everyone knows the bugs what work and what dont work in pvp. good pvp games are the close ones, no one have fun if they cant shoot move or do anything but being target practise for a unbalanced pvp match.

there is some serious issues that needed focus with pvp, and they seam to have missed every single one of them, the queues for one its still 5 vs 1 matches because people get impatient and do other things while waiting and don't leave the queues when they enter other maps or do missions or even go afk. so yes this was what i was looking for with a expansion that supposedly was going to fix pvp.

in the long run it dont really matter what uniform i have when im held held held and cant move it only makes me a prettier corpse.
Agrees 100%.
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