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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-04-2010, 06:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
did you take the t5 bop ship skill, i wonder as you have more hull on your t5 bop than i have
#

Good point... I have BoP class skills, whereas on the Escort I have no 'Escort' skills (it is a pure DPS build). I think the t5 BoP base hull is 24,000
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-05-2010, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4
Very nice post. I read the whole thing and it maintained my interest the entire time. I have two Fed PVE characters (Eng and Tac) and you've convinced me to not only try Klingon but also PvP! I will have to do some serious research on builds and ships as I am very green when it comes to PvP. A few questions:

1.) Do you recommend Eng, Tac, or Sci and why?
2.) What ship type do you recommend? In combination with what captain type?
3.) What is a good starting build for said combination?

Many Thanks!
JD,

Very interesting questions. i am just crawling out of bed and the coffee pot is on, so i will do my best to answer. lol.

Question 1. Do you recommend Eng, Tac, or Sci and why?

I can't answer this one simply because it's a matter of personal preference and play styles. Some people just love nothing but pure dps, others like more supporting roles. So you would have to decide what works for you based simply on what you find the most fun. That is the most important thing.

2.) What ship type do you recommend? In combination with what captain type?

To answer this question you have to first ask yourself a question.

What team role do you find most satisfying? Damage output, control, team support?

Notice I said TEAM and not INDIVIDUAL.. Don't be a stat ho, those people **** me off..

Now on to the question.

This game works the same as any pvp match. To be good first and foremost do your research. Research, research and more research. Then when you done so much research your head is going to fall off, do some more. This is what great players always do. It was 5am when i started this and the first thing i did was come to the forms, both this one and my fleet forums to check for any new strat's, tips, etc out there.

Secondly, this goes hand in hand with the first question, pick the ship and captain type that best works for you. The combination of ship, captain type that provides you the most fun. However that being said you do not have to be a tac in a escort. Crossing ships and captain types work extremely well and the game isn't designed to any one choice. It all comes down to personal choice and opinions vary. So to answer this question I will give you my own personal opinion and not everyone may agree. That is fine.

Engineers work better in escorts and tac officers work great in cruisers.. Why, because an engineer in a tac increases survivability and still puts out great dps. Tactical officers in cruisers can enhance the ships dps in something that already has great survivability by it's very design.

So decide what role you want to play on your team then combine it with the choice you make just to have fun and you can never go wrong..

Question 3.

3.) What is a good starting build for said combination?

Well builds again come down to personal choices and play styles. You have to do your research and find out what works best for you. Here is what i mean. Just yesterday I wandered into a conversation between two fleet members. The debate was centered around if an all beam escort was as effective as an escort with a cannon build. One player was inexperienced, the other was and his answer was no. So i jumped in with an answer like this.

So your telling me, in your opinion a beam escort isn't as effective. Answer no. My reply okay, you tell me if an advanced escort with this build isn't effective...

2x poloran Beam array MK X
2x plasma Beam array MK X
2x Phaser Beam Array MK X
Positron Deflector array Mk X
2x plasma plasma distribution manifolds MK X
3x science induction stablizers MK X
4x Tactical Directed energy distrubtion manifolds MK X

Is just as effective as an escort with an all cannon build? See this is the tricky part. To get the answers you need you always have to ask more questions and discover what works for you. So here goes

Can an all beam escort be just as effective as and all cannon build?

The answer is yes it can. For a few reasons.

Both all beam boats and all cannon builds have their advantages and disadvantages. I will get into both. First cannons have two distinct disadvantages, both come down to the same thing. Positional. Cannons have a much lower firing arc, 45 degrees, so you always have to maintain that position in combination with always having to either be directly in front or behind your enemy facing the ship. So your always fighting for position. Since almost all ship battles break down into circle fights, guess what...

Since I am already a master of circle fights as i indicated earlier from years of flight sims, this plays right into my hands. Why?

Because if i keep that individual in a circle fight with and all beam build the advantage is mine.Beam arrays don't suffer from low arcs. So in a circle fight i am always attacking broadside, with at least 5 beams hitting at once and they have a cannon build they simply can't fire at me back. You will also notice i varied the beam arrays and didn't stick to one type. Most people only like to master one type. I very mine because each beam has different effects. Phasers attack subsystems, plasma for the dot effect, polorans just for pure hull damage.. And they are just damn cool. = ). Which leads to the next too questions..

Can beams put out as much dps as cannons..

Again the answer is yes. Why? well that is easy. First the damage is different. Cannons put out burst dps while beams put out more damage over time. So in a sustained encountered beams will actually put out more dps in the end than cannons do. They simply get off more attacks. Secondly, cannons can't be fired all the time if you don't maintain your position or your firing arc. So can any weapon put out dps if they are not being fired? = ). I rarely lose 1v1s for this reason and only die if targeted by more than one ship.. I can honest tell you in a 1v1 situation, have never lost with my escort all beam build to a ship with an all cannon build. I simply keep them in a circle fight, they can't fire back with anything but turrets and they are done...

Also knowing how to cut across their circle when they try to speed up, stop, or change directions brings me directly behind them. I also used tractor beam on my escort for that reason. When i got behind them, tractor beam, dead opponent.. You don't know how many bop captains get angry when you hit them with tractor beam while they are trying to run away and battle cloak. = ).

Does this mean an all beam boat is as better then an all cannon build. No, of course not. It's personal choice. You just have to know the tricks which all the best players will quickly find in any mmo, use them and guard their secrets.

With Cannon builds your trading sustained dps for burst dps. People prefer these builds because they feel it kills more quickly and you are not effected by feed back pulse. You can keep cannons firing 75% of the time and get torps off every 20 seconds.. How? Simply by using torp High yeild 1 and 2. How do i keep cannons firing, well use Cannon rapid fire 1 and 2. All with correct timing. But again you will always be fighting for position.

The actual build or where to place your points. That is dependent on what you want to do. Do you want an all space build or do you want ground abilities too..

I currently run 3 characters. I will buy more later when i'm done working on these 3. However I have two klinks, One with an all space build for my space needs, and one with points invested in ground abilities when i feel the need to satisfy my ground killing urges...

On my single fed i have points in both ground and space. I originally had to skip points in ship classes. I didn't put all my points in every ship teir when i advanced. i found it to be a waist when you leveled cause you wouldn't use that ship ever again. However now that we get a free respect each level I point points into my ship of choice for that teir, then respect and move the points from my last ship into ground and engineering ablities... Even though you get a 25% boost i find it to still be a waist to leave points in previous ship teirs. Two reasons..

All the teir 3 and 4 points = that of what you get in teir 2 anyway. Also since t5 bonuses are greater then all the previous tiers, as it should be, you don't need to keep those points invested in every ship at every teir.. Unless you use an all space build, then it's fine.. So again, as always, it comes down to personal choice...

This is the Eng/Cruiser build that I use..

http://sto-intel.org/skills/?STOPCod...00000000000799

This is the Eng/Escort build that i use..

http://sto-intel.org/skills/?STOPCod...00000000000799

Hope this helps...

Kelm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-05-2010, 07:40 AM
I do not really 'buy' the all-beam escort concept, but it is good to see someone laying out their builds and the reasons for them in rational and suitably detailed terms... and in readable English. Kudo
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-06-2010, 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD4
Very nice post. I read the whole thing and it maintained my interest the entire time. I have two Fed PVE characters (Eng and Tac) and you've convinced me to not only try Klingon but also PvP! I will have to do some serious research on builds and ships as I am very green when it comes to PvP. A few questions:

1.) Do you recommend Eng, Tac, or Sci and why?
2.) What ship type do you recommend? In combination with what captain type?
3.) What is a good starting build for said combination?

Many Thanks!
I'm not the guy you quoted, but I'll chime in here.

1) All the Officer types are great in their own ways, but realistically, Tac Officers are by far the most common. The rest is a toss up between Engineer and Sci Officers, though Sci Officers are more "High Profile" because of VM, SNB, FBP, etc. If you really want to round out your faction's force composition in PvP, be something else other than Tac Officer. Also, I suggest the long, time consuming effort on trying them all eventually. They all have their own merits.

2) If you really get down to it, there's no set Officer to Ship Type rule in this game. There are some that people gravitate to, i.e. Engineers:Cruisers, Tac Officers:Escorts, Sci Officer:Sci Vessel. But you can make odd combinations work, i.e. Tac Officer:Cruiser, Engineers:Escorts, etc. You may want to go initially with the common combination at first. Because once you start figuring out your class more and roll alts using different classes, you start trying to conjure up crazy combinations to work in PvP, because you've become alot more familiar with the classes and ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-06-2010, 01:29 AM
The Escorts and BoP's kill u in 4 seconds, they also die in 4 seconds when attacked.

For everyone that states that it is possible to be killed in a Cruiser within 4 seconds, well, then u suck at this game frankly.

Cruisers don't kill fast, neither are they weak vessels that can be killed fast if u USE the BO skills in time.
-------
Just flying there, tra lala lala, oh look, a pretty Bird just decloaked, lets NOT do anything and wait to see what happends...

after 3 seconds; He, my shields are gone... :-(
after 5 seconds; he, my hull is losing integrity... :-(

Should I like, I don't know, move so the 3 sides of Shields that ARE intact take the rest of this blunt attack? Neah, my Cruiser will Survive..


BOOM

He killed me.... HE KILLED ME, he is CHEATING, this is UNFAIR, Devsssssssssssss

------

Life IS unfair for those not willing to LEARN
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-06-2010, 03:06 AM
Wait, tho our base shields and hull are weaker we can use an engi consol to boost them. We can buy one form the pvp vendor at BG lvl that effectivelty doubles the base shield str, and one that gives 30% resistance to all wpn types, tho not many run the latter. That was why we disliked the eps nerf as it meant we had to either continue running the one at 1.3 or sacrifice the shield bonus and use 2 of them.

Are you saying that you do not have access to these, if not i will cheack later to see if they are bind on pickup or equip and would be willing to sell them to fed players, tho they will not be cheap.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-06-2010, 03:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
Are you saying that you do not have access to these, if not i will cheack later to see if they are bind on pickup or equip and would be willing to sell them to fed players, tho they will not be cheap.
The items available are *exactly* the same for both sides.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-06-2010, 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilhippo View Post
I do not really 'buy' the all-beam escort concept, but it is good to see someone laying out their builds and the reasons for them in rational and suitably detailed terms... and in readable English. Kudo
Evil,

It's okay that you don't buy into the all beam escort. That is why i said not everyone will agree. I wasn't even trying to push people into this setup. I was merely indicating that there is no one good set up and that builds, ships are very individualistic according to personal play styles. Any build, any set up, can be effective in any ship if it matches that persons playstyle and they perfect it.

I can assure you there is no one perfect build or choice. Many people dislike all beam escorts but they usually set it up wrong. If you decide to use and all beam or all cannon build, or any build but you don't have the right consoles, mix and match, etc then yes you will find it much harder and think the build sucks. Instead of researching it and learning to master it to match your play style you will find yourself asking other people or searching online for that "perfect" setup. Which will always leave you frustrated because it doesn't match your play style.

Example, when i first started playing eq, with my brother I went with choices based on what veteran players told me. So i ended up with a caster or a ranger. What i found was their roles didn't support my play style. I didn't like running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I much preferred the going toe to toe, trading heavy blows, come back here you little wimp and fight like a man, play style. LOL. See you will never be truely happy in anything you do and enjoy it far less unless it matches your SOUL. Then no matter what happens, win or lose, you will just smile and say, I had fun. If people did that they would be far less frustrated, complain and whine far less. Because when your truely having the most possible fun, you really don't care if you win or lose. It was the experience that mattered.

You will notice that in my build i suggested very specific consoles to go with my build. 2x plasma , 3x science, 4x tactical directed.. What you do find is people mixing and matching consoles.. They make the choice to take maybe 1 or 2 or each, lets say 2 tactical directed and maybe, well i can't think of all the consoles atm, but you get the idea, they may take a tac console that increases plasma damage.

So they mix and match and don't know how to set up the build to be the most effective. It doesn't work and they get frustrated, this all beam escort sucks.. Or they do the same thing with a cannon build, mix and match, don't get the most potential and get frustrated..

Which is exactly why i said RESEARCH, RESEARCH and more RESEARCH. I should of also included PRACTICE, Practice, Practice. No one is going to take any build and be instantly great with it. Even if it matches your play style you still have to practice and master it. People just get frustrated and give up too easily, going and searching for that "perfect" build.

The next problem is they simply might not know how to use it, an all beam escort flown out of position will be completely useless. If you find your being out maneuvered, your enemy always gets behind you or you try to go head to head all the time, where you can only use your frontal beams, yes you will lose those encounters. However if you use all all beam escort in combination with mastering positioning, in combination with the right console choices you will be just as effective as an all cannon build.

Trust me, If I am in an escort, or bird of prey, all beam setups are just as effective in both, and i get into a circle fight with you, taking you out of your cannons firing arc, into an all broadside battle, using beam overload 1, beam overload II, jam sensors, tractor beam, Attack patter alpha, attack pattern omega, attack pattern beta for a debuff, You will lose. Those little turrets that people stick in back are NO match for 6 beams hitting you at once.. I can absolutely guarantee you Klinks hate escorts with tractor beam.. Absolutely hate it. I hear more insults about this, immoblizing them broadside to keep the advantage yours or behind them and they can't run away. It really really ****es them off... = ).

The last thing you have to take into consideration is the level ranges in pvp. Before i rerolled my tac escort and went eng cruiser i used an all beam escort build with a very specific build, with exactly the right console choices and bo's that worked for ME, and not everyone esle. To enhance MY abilities and MY individual play style, NOT somene elses. I can honestly say i rarely ever lost a 1v1 fight ever to ships equal to my level or even a couple levels above me. If you want me to be completely honest, and i have said this in many of my past posts, I find ship pvp FAR TOO EASY. I much prefer ground pvp, it is far more challenging, people, especially klinks can't just run away, and everyone is on even terms.. Except maybe science officers. They are a bit over powered in any arena...

The only time i would die quickly is when encountering a 1v1 with a +4 ship or higher or getting targeted by multiple ships. Remember when you jump into any pvp match it's not balanced to fight people withing close proximity range. Your going to jump into a pvp match lets say Captain 1 and and find yourself up against multiple ships that are all captain 8's.

In this game the way skill points are allocated that would be the same as a level 31 player going up against a level 38 in a 1v1, or several 38's that all gang up on that one player. Then they all brag about how great they are. The level ranges in sto pvp arn't exactly balanced..

So in my point wasn't to sell any one build or get people to buy into any concept. My point was there IS NO ONE perfect build or set up. An all beam escort or bop can be just as effective and deadly as one's with all cannon builds, or any other build for that matter. It comes down to personal choice, personal play styles, lots and lots of both research and practice, picking the right skill choices, bo's, consosles then mastering it.

Self discovery is a wonderful thing, Find out what works for YOU, not EVERYONE else.. = )..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
04-07-2010, 12:05 AM
When they finally fix FBP to reflect cannons I can see most Klingons abandoning the game.

I fly an Escort and if I can reflect 1 second of the cannon fire directed at me from ONE Bop, it will instagank it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
04-07-2010, 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thlaylie View Post
When they finally fix FBP to reflect cannons I can see most Klingons abondoning the game.

I fly an Escort and if I can reflect 1 second of the cannon fire directed at me from ONE Bop, it will instagank it.
There should be a second change to cannons. Currently dps is either higher or lower based on the weapons firing arc. the narrower the rac, the higher the dps. Naturally, having the narrowest arc cannons had the highest dps.

Beams had the ability to have extra spcials attached to them, not only the ability to increase damage, but also the ability to target subsystems. Cannons on the other hand only get one damage boosting ability. The trade off was that beams were effected by fbp and cannons were not. If cannons are effected by feedback pulse (and i think the same problem of one shotting yourself applies to escorts given bops caould have fbp3) it would seem only fair that the balance be maintained between weapon types and thy should have targert subsystems added to them as well as beams. I cant think of how many target aux 3's i have , with zero aux your fbp will be pathetic and noting to worry about, which it always could have, except people are too dumb to use it
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