Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribblerancher View Post
okay, what about pug vs pug where 1 side stil gets destroyed like one side was a premade?
Of course you will get groups that play like that from time to time. But the frequency is far less than actual premades.

It is well outside the standard deviation, and I think not really related to the overall subject.

I do understand what you are saying though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Maybe instead of saying people who organize are the problem, you should try joining a better fleet that is more active and inline with your playstyle? Who knows, maybe you'll have fun when you get to know all those thousands of people out there in the galaxy, and you may learn to stop losing to those you call "professional" - who are really nothing more than people who work together.
QFT,

Premades aren't the problem. People who think they can accomplish anything by themselves are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
I gave your analogy the dignity it earned. It makes no sense, and doesn't apply. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and believe you weren't trying to legitimately suggest that the average joe football team should be able to beat the professional team... right?
Nope, i was suggesting that it is rather rude for the profession football team to ruin the fun of the guys hanging out trying to have fun, without being hassled and berated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
In your analogy you compare a professional football team with organized player groups in STO, and the average joe football team to PUGs in STO. Big problem - it doesn't apply at all to STO. No one can join a professional football team, average people can't simply sign up for the New York Giants. BUT ANYONE in STO can join an organized fleet and become a contributing member of an organized PvP team.
The analogy is that a group that is constant, works together, has builds to support one another is like a professional football team. You missed this point as well. The guys who just meet in the part as opposed to the guys who play together constantly and know each other's moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Your problem is you want to be successful in PvP, but PvP in STO requires a team (you cannot even enter a PvP match without a minimum of 5 players on your TEAM). That word "team" is apparently too high of a benchmark for you, and the result is you want Cryptic to fix that problem for you with code?
Guild Wars does this very well. It has been done before and it can be done again. Also don't tell me what my benchmarks are. You don't know me. There are a lot of guys who don't have fleets or are in small friend based fleets and they are not always on at the same time. These guys (and there are more of THEM than in fleets, THAT much I am sure of) are unable to put together a 5 man constantly. I am barely ever able to put together 3 man's, because I am not in a fleet and my friends live in different countries. There are factors here you are not considering. Lots of people are in this boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
So I read your post and I asked myself - is this guy just being too lazy to organize himself for the competition of PvP in STO?

The answer I concluded was - YEP!
I noticed you like to answer your own questions. Next time ask me. Or don't bother posting it. See above paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
There are numerous options that any player can take action on when in your situation, and the one you decided to act upon was to complain that in a massive multiplayer online game where PvP is group centric, the people who organize are the problem. Your analysis completely ignores how PUG teams lose, and how that in and of itself may suggest the individual PUGs are each individually the problem.
My analysis was showing the basic idea of why pugs lose to premades. Sure there are LOT of factors.. almost infinite actually. The post would be endless if I was to make a case for every variable that MIGHT satisfy your needs. Once again.. I said just some random guys in the park. Did you see me talk about these random guys skills or prowess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Nope, you didn't do that, because to do so would be to reflect the possibility that you are somehow not doing something right, that in a perfect world disorganized and unplanned individuals will be able to come together and quickly compete against high level competition...
When I am doing a capture and hold (which I don't see a lot of premades it) I have typically been going 30-0 kill to death ratio. I am doing fine. When I am in the premade fest of "kill 15" then you die in 2 seconds. I am doing fine, Thanks for asking though. Also, once again you missed the point of the post. Please read it again. This has nothing to do with "unplanned individuals will be able to come together and quickly compete against high level competition". This is about a place for the "rest of us" to play. The guys with lives who don't want to or are unable to spend HOURS trying to coordinate a mass group of players into a premade. Some of us log in for a few minutes.. and then have stuff to do. What about those guys?.. and there are more of us than not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
To reflect on any possible solution other than the merits and tranquility of chaotic team play, you would had to reflect that somehow what you were doing was probably not optimal. Surely not a perfect soul such as yourself...

And after considerable effort at the keyboard, you took the high road of telling every one who works to be part of a team how they are the problem...

Are you feeling me yet? Is the sarcasm hitting home? Who is missing whose point?
You are. Read it again. You have missed nearly every point, twisted it and replied to your own mental version of what you recreated in your head. I don't know how to make it simpler for you. Do you need crayons and a big chief pad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Maybe instead of saying people who organize are the problem, you should try joining a better fleet that is more active and inline with your playstyle? Who knows, maybe you'll have fun when you get to know all those thousands of people out there in the galaxy, and you may learn to stop losing to those you call "professional" - who are really nothing more than people who work together.
You missed the point of nearly everything I said. Good job. I wish there was an award for somebody like you.

Read this man's post for a deeper explanation. But since you have not grasped this simple one... good luck

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=127714
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
QFT,

Premades aren't the problem. People who think they can accomplish anything by themselves are.
and you missed the point as well. Grats
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-07-2010, 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
and you missed the point as well. Grats
No I got the point. You made a bad comparison. Even if you had made a better one, I dont see how premades are a problem in STO or any other game.

In STO, everyone has access to the same Bridge Office Skills, Equipment, Weapons, Ships and the ability to work in a team. In the case of a professional football team against a amateur league, the pro footballers have access to the best physical training and best equipment.

A more suited comparison would be two pro football teams, one who plays as a team and a team that focuses on individual plays.

Sure, premade teams do tend to be a little vocal about winning, but losing teams are just as vocal, if not more so. I can't tell you how many times our fleet has been called exploiters, how many times we've been accused of using cheap tactics and skills that everyone has access to.

Premades are not the problem, fools who expect to go up against a premade teams and win because they are so awesome are.

You want to put premades in a seperate Queues? We jump at the chance to fight other premades. We even made a chat channel about it. But the truth is, not that many premades exist out there.

You want to penalize us because you cant be bothered to get in a group and play with a team? Sadly, this is the mentality in STO right now. Players level up thinking they are the bomb because they can take on 10 enemies at once in PvE and then complain about PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
Premades are not the problem, fools who expect to go up against a premade teams and win because they are so awesome are.

You want to put premades in a seperate Queues? We jump at the chance to fight other premades. We even made a chat channel about it. But the truth is, not that many premades exist out there.

You want to penalize us because you cant be bothered to get in a group and play with a team? Sadly, this is the mentality in STO right now. Players level up thinking they are the bomb because they can take on 10 enemies at once in PvE and then complain about PvP.
And this only proves you missed my point.

See, we DON'T have an option to NOT run into premades. Also the whole "cant be bothered to get in a group and play with a team" junk was also in the post, but you missed that as well.

I am more of a PvP Guy that a PvE guy so your "Players level up thinking they are the bomb because they can take on 10 enemies at once in PvE and then complain about PvP." statment is pointless. Please read it again, because you missed it. Still are missing it. And.. well... I have a feeling you will keep on missing it.

in fact.. tell you what. Until you manage to actually POST why my point was,.. You are not even worth replying to any more

So post what my point is, and I will let you know if you are right.

I don't see that happening though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-07-2010, 06:40 PM
Just wanted to chime in here in an effort to bring some clarity to the argument.

The above posts seem to describe -symptoms- of the problem, not the actual problem or its cause.

The problem is 'imbalanced' win:loss ratios (i.e., not 1:1).

The cause is poor matchmaking, because there is no implemented system yet that can 1) evaluate 'skill' (in terms of output) of players, and 2) remember that evaluation and rate different players accordingly (in order to match up similarly rated players).

My solution is linked above, and in my signature. Check it out. Comment on it. Let's get enough support to escalate it. We need this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-07-2010, 06:41 PM
I play Klingon, mostly pugs, and almost never run into pre-mades in T5. Well, I assume they are pugs because they blow up real fast and pretty much offer almost no challenge. I actually miss having DOB and Section 31 guys around...of course they blow up our pug but at least it is entertaining. Is there really that many more Klingon Pre-mades running around? Honestly curious about this....making me feel all self conscience because nobody invites me to play with them ;(
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-07-2010, 06:41 PM
The queues should just work like WoW, where people are matched up according to premade vs. premade, pug vs. pug and teams are matched generally gear-wise.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-07-2010, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Dravis
Just wanted to chime in here in an effort to bring some clarity to the argument.

The above posts seem to describe -symptoms- of the problem, not the actual problem or its cause.

The problem is 'imbalanced' win:loss ratios (i.e., not 1:1).

The cause is poor matchmaking, because there is no implemented system yet that can 1) evaluate 'skill' (in terms of output) of players, and 2) remember that evaluation and rate different players accordingly (in order to match up similarly rated players).

My solution is linked above, and in my signature. Check it out. Comment on it. Let's get enough support to escalate it. We need this.
yeah, I read your post. It was great. I agree it would be hard to measure the value of what a capture point is worth. Maybe if there are 1200 total points in capture and your captures are responsible for say 600 points / number of people involved in capture, then it could be a mathematical bonus to your overall score... the added value of the overall performance.
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