Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Fix PvP Dailys Please
04-13-2010, 10:00 AM
I just had to sit through two klings talk in Zone while sitting at our base about how they don't even need to do sod all and it still counts as a "win" in the daily. Theres me saying you have to Win because thats what it says in the Quest and I'am getting "lol" at in zone because I didn't know
Excuse me for not being lazy and trying to win a match
Great the rest of us try to win and you do nothing thanks.....
Bad enough Feds doing that to complete their dailys which makes some matches no Fun, but now Klings also.......


Edit lol how slow am I just found out thats why Feds just give up too.... I thought their quests were like the ones in kerrat etc where you just have to take part
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-13-2010, 12:15 PM
I really wish they would cut back on the amount of exp earned during a match. imo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-13-2010, 12:32 PM
I personally think you should only get credit if you actually win the match.

Like you I've seen people just go AFK in matches just so they can get their daily done and get the 5 Honor Marks. What is the point of Winning if people who lose can get the exact same rewards just as quickly.

I can understand that not everyone is amazing at PvP, but if you PvP a lot, it shouldn't be that hard to win 3 matches. PvP dailies are on a rotation too, so you don't even have to complete that daily on the same day...

All the current system is doing is rewarding mediocrity. The system is broken, people who put in no effort are rewarded for doing so. Its only a matter of time before we have two complete teams going afk hoping the other will complete the match.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-13-2010, 12:39 PM
To be fair, the rewards are small. I'm not sure that a system which only rewards victories would be better when we're playing a game where one faction wins a sizable majority of PvP engagements. Talking about WHY one faction has such an advantage is a topic for another thread; in the meantime, the multitudes of Fed players, with long queues to begin with, are going to stop PvPing completely if they have to lose 10 games to win the 3 they need for the mission.

Said another way, the cost to the people who have no trouble winning their three matches (that other people who win less get the same rewards in the same amount of time) is smaller than the cost to the people who don't win much, don't enjoy PvP, and have to make a choice between playing for hours trying to grind out their three wins or just do something else.

It is better for more people to PvP, and the way to get there is to offer decent rewards even for losses. Getting nothing for a loss (and at RA5, the only resource that matters is the Marks) would rapidly create a game where only a few really hardcore folks PvP at all because losing sucks too much to bother.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-13-2010, 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
To be fair, the rewards are small. I'm not sure that a system which only rewards victories would be better when we're playing a game where one faction wins a sizable majority of PvP engagements. Talking about WHY one faction has such an advantage is a topic for another thread; in the meantime, the multitudes of Fed players, with long queues to begin with, are going to stop PvPing completely if they have to lose 10 games to win the 3 they need for the mission.
You can complete the dailies by fighting in FvF, not just FvK. Queues are no longer 30-40 minute waits, you can easily get into a cracked planetoid or salvage op in less than 5 minutes, if not almost instantly during peak hours.

Yes, rewards are small in the match, that's fine., but why give them credit for the daily quest completion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
Said another way, the cost to the people who have no trouble winning their three matches (that other people who win less get the same rewards in the same amount of time) is smaller than the cost to the people who don't win much, don't enjoy PvP, and have to make a choice between playing for hours trying to grind out their three wins or just do something else.
By that reasoning, we should set all STF raidisodes on a time limit. If you cant complete it within X amount of time, you get the Valor Marks, even if you have not moved from the starting position. Why spend hours trying to finish it?

Because hey, some people just suck at PvE too, and they probably cant get past the first pull in The Cure.

PvP Dailies are on a rotation, you don't have to win 3 capture and holds the same day just so you can do it again the next day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfyre010 View Post
It is better for more people to PvP, and the way to get there is to offer decent rewards even for losses. Getting nothing for a loss (and at RA5, the only resource that matters is the Marks) would rapidly create a game where only a few really hardcore folks PvP at all because losing sucks too much to bother.
I'm not 100% sure, but are you actually defending the position that bad players, or players who exploit the system as it is now, is justifiable because it brings more people to PvP? Im saying I'm not sure because it's hard for me to imagine people being rewarded for doing nothing. Do you get 100% on exams by not filling out anything but your name? Does your boss pay you for 8 hours of work a day if you don't show up at all?

So what is the point of rewards if you get the exact same reward for losing as you do for winning. What motivation does a player or a team have to win if there is no difference between a win and a loss?

Some people do have a desire to better themselves and to be challenged. Right now, this is the only motivation for a team to want to win against another team. But the system is taking that away. The other team can just fly around and do nothing or just feed the enemy.

Tell you the truth, I don't care if those people don't play PvP. You know why? They aren't playing now. They are just flying into our fedball and dying in Cracked Planets, or just staying AFK at their spawn station in Salvage Ops.
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# 6
04-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Quote:
I'm not 100% sure, but are you actually defending the position that bad players, or players who exploit the system as it is now, is justifiable because it brings more people to PvP?
Not exactly.

What I'm really saying is that the worst-case consequence of a system in which you can still complete the daily and get your reward is the class of player who will just AFK and not even try to win. I honestly think that players like that are few and far between in STO. This isn't WoW, where time invested is a much bigger contributor to gearing up in PvP, because the only useful PvP rewards come from the dailies.

There are a lot more people who will PvP, lose, and never come back because they don't view completing that daily as worth the effort than there are people who will afk in the zone to take advantage of the loss condition. Making the first group's experience more enjoyable (by virtue of giving them a reward for playing even if they don't win) is a worthy enough goal that I'll accept the second group and their stupid playstyle.

MMOs reward people for time invested as well as skill. People who play three PvP matches probably deserve their token 5 marks, even if they don't win. It's really a concession to the solo Fed PvPer, whose chances of winning any given FvK match are very slim. However, you're right that the presence of FvF makes this whole argument somewhat less compelling, since FvF has neither the balance issues nor the balance perceptions that are very much a part of FvK PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 7
04-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
I personally think you should only get credit if you actually win the match.

Like you I've seen people just go AFK in matches just so they can get their daily done and get the 5 Honor Marks. What is the point of Winning if people who lose can get the exact same rewards just as quickly.

I can understand that not everyone is amazing at PvP, but if you PvP a lot, it shouldn't be that hard to win 3 matches. PvP dailies are on a rotation too, so you don't even have to complete that daily on the same day...

All the current system is doing is rewarding mediocrity. The system is broken, people who put in no effort are rewarded for doing so. Its only a matter of time before we have two complete teams going afk hoping the other will complete the match.
While I agree with this in principle (and I do agree with it), my pragmatic side doesn't think this is the best of ideas.

Scenario: Cracked/Solar/Briar. Blue Score: 7. Red Score: 0. Red players know they have to WIN in order to get credit. Red players leave the match and go queue for a different one. New red players in the queue join up. Maybe they go get killed once. Most of them see the 7/0 score and say, "Screw this, I'm not doing this and not getting credit." Red players leave. Cycle repeats itself. You end up with an abandoned instance that doesn't clear itself until some red player comes in and dies like a man.

Anyone who has seen people leave matches in droves because they're losing should look at this as a pretty bad idea.

PvP in this game needs a shot in the arm, if not a good healthy jolt from the game development version of defibrillator paddles. Yeah, the current state of affairs may promote mediocrity, but at least people show up, which, by the way, they've already stopped doing at any level lower than Captain. Penalizing those that suck or those that just want to get their dailies done will just drive more people away. And, honestly, I don't think there are enough people who PvP for the enjoyment of it to keep the PvP going in any meaningful fashion.

Maybe a bonus instead of a penalty. Top two damage dealers and top two healers get a bonus of extra marks when they turn the mission in. The key at this point should be to promote participation, even if it's bad participation.

Ninja Edit: Clarified last paragraph.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-14-2010, 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax_Aeterna
While I agree with this in principle (and I do agree with it), my pragmatic side doesn't think this is the best of ideas.

Scenario: Cracked/Solar/Briar. Blue Score: 7. Red Score: 0. Red players know they have to WIN in order to get credit. Red players leave the match and go queue for a different one. New red players in the queue join up. Maybe they go get killed once. Most of them see the 7/0 score and say, "Screw this, I'm not doing this and not getting credit." Red players leave. Cycle repeats itself. You end up with an abandoned instance that doesn't clear itself until some red player comes in and dies like a man.

Anyone who has seen people leave matches in droves because they're losing should look at this as a pretty bad idea.
I can understand that problem. However, I doubt most people would just up and quit if they lost, a small minority might. If that behavior was commonplace, then nobody would ever get matches done and nobody would get their marks.

Perhaps a better system would be to reward the winning team with more marks of excellence than the losing team, and adding the ability to turn in marks of excellence for marks of honor somewhere along the lines of 150:1 ratio.

Each PvP match gives 23 as it is now. Perhaps bump it up to 25 for losing team, and 50 for winning team. Winning team therefore only needs to win 3 times, losing teams 6 times. Nobody would ever need to play more than 6 times to get the daily. A limit could be imposed on how many marks can be converted every day to make sure that marks of honor can't be farmed ad infinitum.

Another idea could be win/loss tokens. 3 win tokens or 6 loss tokens for 5 honor marks, or any combination (1 win 4 loss, 2 win 2 loss etc).

I never said losing teams should not get any kind of reward at all, I can understand the need to reward participation, but there needs to be an incentive to win, other than one's own pride.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 9
04-14-2010, 02:02 AM
I am saying this all time from start: Reward winning, not being afk. But as no one listens, I resigned in the end =)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-14-2010, 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipigi
I never said losing teams should not get any kind of reward at all, I can understand the need to reward participation, but there needs to be an incentive to win, other than one's own pride.
Oh I can agree with that. My major concern was that at T5 I'd be willing to wager that a significant majority of the participants are playing for the dailies, and win or lose they'd need some kind of reward (honor) or credit toward the dailies or they'd just go away.
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