Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
04-14-2010, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laediin View Post
That is one example and I am guessing it is the only example. Maybe there is a way to grief people with some higher level STF missions as well. You want to force a death penalty on everyone for the sake of completing 1 fleet action without tards screwing it up?
Hardly. I can list similar examples from every Fleet Action I've taken part in thus far. Do I really need to? And if it sounds like it's limited to Fleet Actions, it's because that and Deep Space Encounters are the only places thus far where I've been forced to share a mission with complete strangers rather than people of my choosing. Preferring to make my own groups, I don't participate in open grouping for regular missions, although I certainly feel for the players who do. At least, for those who wish others would play smarter.

Someone in this thread compared playing smarter to having less fun. Which is curious, because it certainly sounds like more fun to me to play smart and complete a task force in 1-2 hours rather than zerging it to death over a 4 hour period. Last I checked, it is completely possible to have fun while playing without making stupid mistakes repeatedly. Perhaps we have different definitions of fun. Mine doesn't include running back from the respawn point 82 times.

Perhaps if players had been encouraged via death deterrents to play smarter from the start, the good habits and tactics they would have needed to develop in simple storyline missions would then carry over into Deep Space Encounters, Fleet Actions, and Task Force missions. Not exactly a major stretch to consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laediin View Post
That is how it happens right now. I never said griefing didn't happen. But when i see people calling for a hard death penalty and for it to be "forced on everyone or it is meaningless" I start to think that they already know how they can exploit a death penalty to grief people who don't want it.
Who has asked for a hard death penalty? The only time I see outrageous death penalties mentioned, they're coming from the fingertips of players who don't want any type of death penalty. They use the most extreme examples as a scare tactic to boost an argument that is incapable of standing on its own two feet.

World of ******** is a huge success despite having several penalties associated with death: stats penalties, durability damage and repair costs, cumulative respawn delays, corpse runs, time sinks as you recover your health, mana and buffs.. not just one death penalty, but several of them.. and yet somehow the game has managed to do perfectly fine for 5+ years.

And here's the result of that: In a recent holiday event on WoW players had a quest to defeat an outdoor boss-type creature. Upon summoning it they began throwing themselves at it and dying quickly. That lasted for about 2 minutes before zone chat filled with comments like "This dying is getting expensive. We need to form a raid and come up with a plan". And they did. And 15 minutes later the boss was dead at their feet.

Death deterrents encourage players to improve. Why anyone would object to that is beyond me. I guess some people are just all too content with putting in the bare minimum amount of effort required to get by, and attack any change they see that might require more effort on their part.

Going back to the CE encounter example - heaven forbid some of those people actually put their ships in motion and go through the annoying bother of avoiding the Large Crystalline Fragments, when sitting still with weapons on autofire and screwing up the encounter for everyone in the process requires so much less effort. How crazy am I for suggesting the game design encourage people to improve their public performance in a multiplayer setting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
04-14-2010, 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
That was/is very much like the death penalty used in Guild Wars, which is one of the better ones out there in my opinion. Except Guild Wars allows the penalty to lower your stats to the point of making it nearly impossible to complete a mission. However, you have to die a lot for this to happen. On the other hand, the penalty is completely removed if you restart the mission from scratch. Its whole point is to make it increasingly difficult for you to cheeze your way through a quest, while being forgiving enough to allow for a few honest accidents which can easily be recovered from if you care enough about how well you're playing to try. I would loved to have seen a system like that in STO.
I think a death penalty can work and both sides of the argument can be happy. There are the extremes who want none ever and those who want the craziest DP possible. I'm glad you aren't one of the extremists.

Even if they take the same route Champions did and up the cap from 6.5% to 8.5%, I'd still be cool with that. But penalties like making you sit in the game 30 minutes as a gas ball as someone in the game told me Gozer wants is flat out insanity. A new potential player being told to sit there and wait to continue playing will cancel before actually learning to play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
04-14-2010, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormstryke
Even if they take the same route Champions did and up the cap from 6.5% to 8.5%, I'd still be cool with that. But penalties like making you sit in the game 30 minutes as a gas ball as someone in the game told me Gozer wants is flat out insanity. A new potential player being told to sit there and wait to continue playing will cancel before actually learning to play.
This is assuming that they will ever learn to play. Have you seen some of the questions being asked in Gamma O? There should be a bot that ports you to the tutorial mission if certain keywords are typed in open chat, then should promptly insult you for asking such a question.

If people want to be DP free make them buy a pretty pink pass in the C store, monthly purchase required. After all I am forced to buy a respec for my toon, even though I was supposed to be able to max all skills out. If you have the cash to blow, buy your ticket to zergdom.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
04-14-2010, 05:10 PM
After talking with the systems designer - here's some more info

RE: Casual players feel the game has increased in difficulty

The game has gotten easier, and most feedback received is that the game is now too easy.

RE: Adding a Death Penalty to the normal (default) difficulty is making the game harder by default for casual players.

The death penalty is designed to be flavorful and immersive. At normal difficulty, the injuries are mild and infrequent that they border on cosmetic and entirely flavorful and IP immersive. The fact that the real death penalty is focused on higher difficulty is evidence that the whole system was designed to not only consider the casual player, but to include them in a new form of gameplay without making life harder on them.

RE: Why aren't we making a difficulty easier than Normal (default)?

We will not be making an "easy" setting. This was thoroughly discussed and decided against for several reasons. The difficulty slider impacts enemy difficulty and rewards, but does not impact mission rewards. Since the majority of rewards come from missions, if we allowed an "easy" mode, a player could eliminate the default difficulty we created to warrant the mission rewards. For the most part everyone would switch to easy to level and defeat the purpose of trying to make the game more difficulty in the first place. Plus no one wants to admit that they had to switch to "easy" to finish a mission - thats just not fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
04-14-2010, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
After talking with the systems designer - here's some more info

RE: Casual players feel the game has increased in difficulty

The game has gotten easier, and most feedback received is that the game is now too easy.

RE: Adding a Death Penalty to the normal (default) difficulty is making the game harder by default for casual players.

The death penalty is designed to be flavorful and immersive. At normal difficulty, the injuries are mild and infrequent that they border on cosmetic and entirely flavorful and IP immersive. The fact that the real death penalty is focused on higher difficulty is evidence that the whole system was designed to not only consider the casual player, but to include them in a new form of gameplay without making life harder on them.

RE: Why aren't we making a difficulty easier than Normal (default)?

We will not be making an "easy" setting. This was thoroughly discussed and decided against for several reasons. The difficulty slider impacts enemy difficulty and rewards, but does not impact mission rewards. Since the majority of rewards come from missions, if we allowed an "easy" mode, a player could eliminate the default difficulty we created to warrant the mission rewards. For the most part everyone would switch to easy to level and defeat the purpose of trying to make the game more difficulty in the first place. Plus no one wants to admit that they had to switch to "easy" to finish a mission - thats just not fun.
So the Difficulty slider scales loot frequency and quality but the completion rewards (SP, BO SP, Merit/Honor) stay the same?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
04-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shikamaru317 View Post
So the Difficulty slider scales loot frequency and quality but the completion rewards (SP, BO SP, Merit/Honor) stay the same?
Well lets perform some reading comprehension/logic class.


1. The difficulty slider impacts enemy difficulty and rewards, but does not impact mission rewards.

Adjusting the slider alters DROPPED loot not MISSION LOOT AND REWARDS.

Dropped loot is... what an enemy drops when you kill them.
Mission loot = predesignated rewards for completeing a task

If mission = harder
Then
Dropped loot = GOODER!!!!
else = not so GOODER loot
end if

If mission = Harder
Then
Mission Loot = Same
else = Same
end if

This concludes our class in the ability to read a paragraph and actually decipher what was presented.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
04-14-2010, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmun
Well lets perform some reading comprehension/logic class.


1. The difficulty slider impacts enemy difficulty and rewards, but does not impact mission rewards.

Adjusting the slider alters DROPPED loot not MISSION LOOT AND REWARDS.

Dropped loot is... what an enemy drops when you kill them.
Mission loot = predesignated rewards for completeing a task

If mission = harder
Then
Dropped loot = GOODER!!!!
else = not so GOODER loot
end if

If mission = Harder
Then
Mission Loot = Same
else = Same
end if

This concludes our class in the ability to read a paragraph and actually decipher what was presented.
Don't get smart with me. I was asking for a confirmation because that statement contradicts something that was previously said by the devs. I was making sure it was intentional and not a slip-up. I'm sad to see a lack of SP scaling since I had been hoping to make up for the gap of missions near the end of each rank by increasing the difficulty setting, which would in turn increase SP rewards for all those missions.

I'm really not in the mood for sarcasm today.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
04-14-2010, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
At normal difficulty, the injuries are mild and infrequent that they border on cosmetic and entirely flavorful and IP immersive.
I don't want to really deviate this thread.. but I have a big problem with the term 'IP immersive' used anywhere in corrolation with STO.

There is almost nothing IP immersive about this game.

1) Bridges are too big as are ship interiors (which you guys claim it's because of your engine).
2) Some of the older console graphics look like they have no functionality whatsoever. (eg: in Star Trek you could generally tell what certain interfaces would do - in STO it's just a mish-mash of graphics put together)
3) Asteroids in 95% of the systems you visit (again you guys have claimed it's for the better.. doesn't make it IP immersive whatsoever.. I think there was a handful or less episodes of Trek that had an asteroid in it!) I'm fine with SOME systems.. but not ALL OF THEM.
4) No iconic Trek music whatsoever (except for the snippit in the login screen - again apparently licensing is preventing them from doing anything.. at this point i'm wondering what kind of relationship Cryptic/Atari has with CBS.)
5) Characters from Trek are misrepresented in game (Naomi Wildman, Icheb, and Admiral Kim (providing whether or not it's Harry) look nothing like what they are supposed to.. in fact Naomi has the wrong forehead - a bug I've reported on more than one occassion since beta.)
6) Star Trek has always been about the character and the morality of said individual.. in STO I go around shooting Jim, Bob and Harry without any hesitation... the Federation is almost acting like Klingons.

I'm sorry for putting this in this thread.. but as I said.. nobody can claim that at this point in time that the game has much to offer in regards to IP immersiveness. It gives you shades of it but doesn't go beyond that.

To touch on the death penalty / difficulty slider, I think people wanted this mostly for missions and STFs.. mind you I find the STFs that I've done (which is only Infected since I can never find a group) pretty difficult to do. I think the game is easy for some people because as players we don't even really have to think throughout the course of the game... go in this system.. shoot this.. and that... I'm not sure a difficulty slider is the right cure for this though.. it could be.. I don't know.. the game just really needs variation (which you guys have stated will be coming in the future).

As for a death penalty.. a simple "IP Immersive" thing to have would be a ship repair / recrew option where you have to go to a Starbase or something and fix yourself up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
04-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Quote:
1) Bridges are too big as are ship interiors (which you guys claim it's because of your engine).
It's due to the camera shoving up against your back in close quarters as well as the interiors needing to be big enough for an enemy mob of 10 for missions.

Quote:
2) Some of the older console graphics look like they have no functionality whatsoever. (eg: in Star Trek you could generally tell what certain interfaces would do - in STO it's just a mish-mash of graphics put together)
I personally think they need to work on the garphics for consoles a bit more, as well as designing a MSD for each ship (instead of having an Akira MSD for everyone)

Quote:
3) Asteroids in 95% of the systems you visit (again you guys have claimed it's for the better.. doesn't make it IP immersive whatsoever.. I think there was a handful or less episodes of Trek that had an asteroid in it!) I'm fine with SOME systems.. but not ALL OF THEM.
They're there for orientation purposes. I don't relly feel they are needed that much, though I can understand why the devs did it.
Quote:
4) No iconic Trek music whatsoever (except for the snippit in the login screen - again apparently licensing is preventing them from doing anything.. at this point i'm wondering what kind of relationship Cryptic/Atari has with CBS.)
The devs don't have the money to pay royalties for music. (which really sucks)

Quote:
5) Characters from Trek are misrepresented in game (Naomi Wildman, Icheb, and Admiral Kim (providing whether or not it's Harry) look nothing like what they are supposed to.. in fact Naomi has the wrong forehead - a bug I've reported on more than one occassion since beta.)
That is done so they don't have to pay for the actors likeness rights.

Quote:
6) Star Trek has always been about the character and the morality of said individual.. in STO I go around shooting Jim, Bob and Harry without any hesitation... the Federation is almost acting like Klingons.
A diplomacy system is in the works, and will hopefully make it out in time for Season 2, though it will likely get pushed to Season 3.


I personally find the game to be pretty immersive. There's always room for improvement, but I'm satisfied.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
04-14-2010, 05:54 PM
dstahl, question.

Will the ground version of the Death Penalty affect BOs as well? If so, cosmetically or practically? Both?
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:41 PM.