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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-14-2010, 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobkyou
At this point it seems unlikely that they will nerf the existing consoles, or all those people who bought +30 consoles for 5 million will feel ripped off (and I'd hate to think I cheated anyone )
Well, they could swap all the grandfathered consoles for new purples of the same mark, or maybe just swap out all existing grandfathered Mk VI+s with new purple Mk Xs. That way, they are still better than what you can likely get now, but only slightly.

Anyway, personally, I understand why they nerfed the consoles. They devs had this idea that we would take different consoles. But no, we crazy players have a tendency to pick some power and then stacking consoles to support it to the max. Much like they are sort of surprised we do the exact same thing with tactical consoles.

So, essentially, we're making science powers more powerful than they want them to be. Since scaling is linear, that puts them in a rough spot. They don't want to nerf the initial value, as then the power isn't good without the support. They want taking the T1, T2, and T3-5 science skills to be worthwhile, so science powers have to scale decently. But then they've got consoles and the Deflector Dish spot to deal with.

Basically, you're typical power can scale by 100 skill. Some, the ones that benefit from the skills that the 3 team skills raise, by 130. Powers that rely on science skills though, due to the deflector dish spot and science consoles, could scale by an additional 160. Over twice as much as others. Now, we're looking at possibly an additional 100 still, so still twice others, ignoring teams.

So, if the devs want a power to top out at 10 (and are fine with it going to 11 with a team skill), your typical skill would start at 5 and hit 10 at 100 skill. A science skill would have to start at 5 and take 260 skill to hit 10. Or else start at 3 and hit 10 at 260 skill. Or potentially it gets to start at 3, hits 6 at 100 skill, and hits 11 at 260, 12 with science team. In essence, science powers have to be designed weaker than others to start with and with 100 skill, because we might choose to make it stronger.

I've said it before (before the nerf even) and will no doubt say it again, having science consoles be +skill was and still is a mistake.

The devs should take the time and think up some decent science console ideas and flat out replace the +skill ones. All of them, new and grandfathered, to the scrap heap. If that means some science powers are too weak without the benefit of consoles, those can then be identified and fixed. Because, odds are, if they are too weak without the consoles, they aren't the ones we're picking the consoles to boost anyway.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-15-2010, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
Anyway, personally, I understand why they nerfed the consoles. They devs had this idea that we would take different consoles. But no, we crazy players have a tendency to pick some power and then stacking consoles to support it to the max. Much like they are sort of surprised we do the exact same thing with tactical consoles.

So, essentially, we're making science powers more powerful than they want them to be. Since scaling is linear, that puts them in a rough spot. They don't want to nerf the initial value, as then the power isn't good without the support. They want taking the T1, T2, and T3-5 science skills to be worthwhile, so science powers have to scale decently. But then they've got consoles and the Deflector Dish spot to deal with.

Basically, you're typical power can scale by 100 skill. Some, the ones that benefit from the skills that the 3 team skills raise, by 130. Powers that rely on science skills though, due to the deflector dish spot and science consoles, could scale by an additional 160. Over twice as much as others. Now, we're looking at possibly an additional 100 still, so still twice others, ignoring teams.

So, if the devs want a power to top out at 10 (and are fine with it going to 11 with a team skill), your typical skill would start at 5 and hit 10 at 100 skill. A science skill would have to start at 5 and take 260 skill to hit 10. Or else start at 3 and hit 10 at 260 skill. Or potentially it gets to start at 3, hits 6 at 100 skill, and hits 11 at 260, 12 with science team. In essence, science powers have to be designed weaker than others to start with and with 100 skill, because we might choose to make it stronger.
I don't think this really addresses the point of this topic: Why the old consoles were grandfathered in. I can understand the nerf, just not the reasoning why the older consoles would keep the inflated bonuses, as it's not beneficial to the longevity of this game or improving player incentive to create new characters (as these items will be unobtainable for them). It also puts players who were in the know regarding this change on much higher ground, skill-wise and financially, yet another negative aspect of the change.

As for changing the consoles out, that 'could' be a valid idea, but it'd hard to figure out what consoles would/should be upgraded to what other console equivalents. Giving all these players MK X VRs isn't great in terms of balancing (since they're currently unobtainable), but it's a huge improvement over the current skill point gap, up to 60 more than the now 'average' new player.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-15-2010, 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionfone View Post
I don't think this really addresses the point of this topic: Why the old consoles were grandfathered in. I can understand the nerf, just not the reasoning why the older consoles would keep the inflated bonuses, as it's not beneficial to the longevity of this game or improving player incentive to create new characters (as these items will be unobtainable for them). It also puts players who were in the know regarding this change on much higher ground, skill-wise and financially, yet another negative aspect of the change.
Yeah, I already answered that a while back. They did it so people didn't get nerfed, basically felt the change needed doing, but that it wasn't a big enough issue to nerf people.

I've seen items grandfathered in other games, but they were typically pretty rare items to begin with, not PvP factors, and/or not chopped in half, power-wise.

Quote:
As for changing the consoles out, that 'could' be a valid idea, but it'd hard to figure out what consoles would/should be upgraded to what other console equivalents. Giving all these players MK X VRs isn't great in terms of balancing (since they're currently unobtainable), but it's a huge improvement over the current skill point gap, up to 60 more than the now 'average' new player.
I think it'd be pretty easy. Since the consoles got halved, you'd replaced any old console with a value over 15. Yeah, that would mean you'd see some grandfathered ones below 15 in the lower tiers, but that wouldn't be too much an issue. Limited number of console slots and all that.

Purple consoles are obtainable right now, I believe. Just the only way to get them is as a random drop and rare actually means rare when it comes to drops. Which is why it would work. People who spent a ton on the grandfathered consoles would feel less hurt by it. And if they start out unbound, then people can try to sell them if they want. I'd imagine once the initial flood passed, they'd go for a pretty penny. Unless, of course, they do something silly like add them to the badge vendors.

Although, personally, I want to see all the +skill science consoles removed from the game and new non-skill boosting science consoles added to replace them. Grandfathered or not, get rid of the science skill consoles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-15-2010, 12:27 PM
i think its funny , all the people who don't wanna lose theer +30's.


you really cant play with equal gear? you MOST have better to play?

or you making so much money off this, ? did the OP threaten your future profits?

i see no reason why anybody should keep the better ones. why is any one player so needing better gear then the rest?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-15-2010, 02:10 PM
@Axterix,

While your point about those who spent money on the grandfathered consoles post-nerf is well-taken, that entire situation was one created by the boneheadedness of the nerf in the first place. If sci consoles are overpowered when stacked, or abilities prove problematic due the linearity of skill scaling, then nerf universally...or not at all.

The point of this entire thread is that it's the grandfathering of the nerf that is not acceptable. It's remarkable the number of players who have the +30 consoles who are in agreement that any change in the sci consoles should have been universal, not two-tiered.

As the devs have nerfed, discussion of purples or even compensation for those lucky enough to have the in-game equivalents of Charlie Bucket's Golden Ticket is, and will remain, a point for another thread.



-Xak
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-15-2010, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xakhareth
The point of this entire thread is that it's the grandfathering of the nerf that is not acceptable. It's remarkable the number of players who have the +30 consoles who are in agreement that any change in the sci consoles should have been universal, not two-tiered.
Yup, I agree with that. And that's someone who has +30 consoles. If it is broken, it is broken and should be fixed. If it isn't broken, then leave it alone.

Although, again, my feeling is that in this case, +skill consoles are broken period and should all go the way of the dodo, grandfathered or not

Quote:
As the devs have nerfed, discussion of purples or even compensation for those lucky enough to have the in-game equivalents of Charlie Bucket's Golden Ticket is, and will remain, a point for another thread.
Actually, a necessary part of a thread like this, which talks about a specific case that was snuck onto live without testing on Tribble. Too late to provide feedback there. So now people have done things with "real" characters. And if you want to make it universal, you've got to take that into account, so you can counter the argument that it wouldn't be fair to those that paid millions for grandfathered consoles that are suddenly worthless because the devs changed their minds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-16-2010, 05:37 AM
These kinds of imbalances is what creates a game of "haves"and "have nots". In a PVE environment it creates players that can more easily farm content creating an elite tier that can never be attained by other players. In PVP it erases any pretense of equal chance where skill is the determining factor.

I have no issue whatsoever if the devs feel something is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. I have great objection to any nerf being applied with inequality so that some players will forever have an advantage over others.

Cryptic please provide an equal playing field for all players. Grandfathering items that were inbalanced doesn't fix the inbalance, it only creates a bigger one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-16-2010, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scifiguy View Post
These kinds of imbalances is what creates a game of "haves"and "have nots". In a PVE environment it creates players that can more easily farm content creating an elite tier that can never be attained by other players. In PVP it erases any pretense of equal chance where skill is the determining factor.

I have no issue whatsoever if the devs feel something is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. I have great objection to any nerf being applied with inequality so that some players will forever have an advantage over others.

Cryptic please provide an equal playing field for all players. Grandfathering items that were inbalanced doesn't fix the inbalance, it only creates a bigger one.
Speaking as one of the "haves" in this situation, I couldn't have said it better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
04-17-2010, 11:41 PM
Yup, my thoughts exactly, scifiguy. Very well put.

I've tried to keep hope alive that this issue will be addressed, but honestly it really does seem like it's just going to be ignored. I've yet to see any response other than dstahl's really terse one.

What's unfortunate to me is that this is the first MMO in about 5 years that I've been amped about playing, and with the poorly implemented changes, exceedingly long 'raid' experiences with rather inelegant/akward mechanics, 'badge' rewards that have questionable utility (when other items are obtainable for far less time/effort/frustration), missions that bug out even with me as an RA5.....

I dunno. I hope Cryptic enjoys the $300+ bucks (lifer+collectors+C-store points) of mine they got, because I'm loathe to make an additional purchase anytime soon.

/emosigh

Wish the devs would respond.
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