Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
04-27-2010, 09:15 AM
I actually agree with this. starships are fighting in a 3 dimensional area just as aircraft do. even though there is no actual up or down in space is irrelevant. they should be able to roll over and show their belly's or dorsal to an enemy.

the game does this somewhat when we turn because they actually show the ship "banking" in the turn. At least my Constitution refit does. I do like the ability to use a joystick with this game i think it would make starship combat for me personally a lot easier.

of course if they do that then i am going to want a chase cam instead of the crappy space cam system we got right now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
04-27-2010, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
So you are saying the developers gave up on it because they lack the technical ability to use standard flight control systems that have been around since the 1980s. It is a shame all the really good programmers that made really good games, are all retired now. These new breed of programmers are excellent at creating games that are neither good in one aspect and lousy and every aspect the try to cater too.

A roll system would make the game awesome. However, the developers in this game seem not to want to push themselves technically and accomplish something they feel is impossible for them to do. It seems to me the only thing they are pushing the envelop on is aesthetics and textual conversation. Both of which are awful in this game.
It's not a technical limitation. It's a psychological limitation of enough of the players that they won't do it.

As I understand it, they did have it for a while during testing, and enough of their testers found it disorienting that they put the limits on it they did. They have also said they will not be changing it.

Personally, I hope they'll loosen up enough just to allow a full 90 vertical pitch. That would eliminate the "I can't shoot the guy directly above me" problems, and still keep the ships in the same vertical orientation (when you returned to level, you'd still be on the same vertical as everyone else).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
04-27-2010, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
A fleet is designed like a air combat squadron and a starship combines both a aircraft and naval vessel. All the Enterprise had throttles.
So do all naval vessels, but you don't see a submarine doing a roll do you?

I seem to recall them saying that they are going to implement new software in the coming months that will allow people to turn on their back from the perspective of their camera, but don't quote me on that. As for rolls, this isn't a fighter game and we never saw the Enterprise, A, B, C, D, or E try to pull a barrel roll (banking is a bit different but you already do it in the game).

In fact the only ships you ever saw in Star Trek ever pull anything like a Barrel Roll are the "new" Defiant and NX-01, and both of them were small ships (crews under 100, ship size proportioned accordingly).

The devs have done a great job in keeping the ships in this game as close to canon as reasonably possible, why screw it up by giving a multi-million metric ton cruiser the ability to fly like you see in Top Gun?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
04-27-2010, 10:01 AM
you can't turn upside down in space, everything would fall to the ceiling! :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
04-27-2010, 10:10 AM
To reiterate -

It was a purposful aesthetic decision to keep starships at the same orientation and not allow inverted flight, not because it was a tech limitation but because in Star Trek, starships never face off inverted to one another. It is an artistic distinction that makes space combat in Star Trek look like tall ships combat.

We have discussed options for more pitch or even z axis movement - but it is a firm decision that we will not allow inverted flight for Star Trek Starships (although we reserve the right to change this for specific situations where your ship may be out of control).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
04-27-2010, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
To reiterate -
in Star Trek, starships never face off inverted to one another. It is an artistic distinction that makes space combat in Star Trek look like tall ships combat.
.
in before the canon videos trying to prove this wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
04-27-2010, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
...As for rolls, this isn't a fighter game and we never saw the Enterprise, A, B, C, D, or E try to pull a roll (banking is a bit different but you already do it in the game).
Yes, you have. You just were not paying attention. What is the Enterprise E doing in that video after Picard orders "Full axis rotation to port"?

Also, equating a starship to a naval vessel is inaccurate. Naval ships (including submarines) have to deal with resistances from water and the atmosphere. There are no resistances in the vaccuum of space.

Quote:
In fact the only ships you ever saw in Star Trek ever pull anything like a Barrel Roll are the "new" Defiant and NX-01, and both of them were small ships (crews under 100, ship size proportioned accordingly).
Size has nothing to do with a ships' ability to invert, roll or pitch in space. Smaller ships would be able to roll faster/more easily due to having less mass than a huge cruiser, but it is not impossible them to do. See above video again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
04-27-2010, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
To reiterate -

It was a purposful aesthetic decision to keep starships at the same orientation and not allow inverted flight, not because it was a tech limitation but because in Star Trek, starships never face off inverted to one another. It is an artistic distinction that makes space combat in Star Trek look like tall ships combat.

We have discussed options for more pitch or even z axis movement - but it is a firm decision that we will not allow inverted flight for Star Trek Starships (although we reserve the right to change this for specific situations where your ship may be out of control).
Works for me, and glad to hear that we won't be able to do barrel rolls

If yall do decide to add additional movement though, perhaps you could right in a code that forces the ship back into an "upright" position once a given maneuver is finished?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
04-27-2010, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
To reiterate -

It was a purposful aesthetic decision to keep starships at the same orientation and not allow inverted flight, not because it was a tech limitation but because in Star Trek, starships never face off inverted to one another. It is an artistic distinction that makes space combat in Star Trek look like tall ships combat.

We have discussed options for more pitch or even z axis movement - but it is a firm decision that we will not allow inverted flight for Star Trek Starships (although we reserve the right to change this for specific situations where your ship may be out of control).
With respect, they do. In Nemesis the Enterprise rolled belly-up to the scimitar and fired while pulling a loop and having marathoned Voyager enough in the past few days to know Janeway says "Lateral roll" a few times, even sen it used against the Kazon.

It really does not get in the way aside from when something is straight above or straight above, this makes it needed to do a drawn out cork-screw to get a good line up on target. However lending a machete to an intellectual thicket, perhaps escorts should be allowed to do this, traditionally they are shown doing things most of the other classes of vessels never did, DS9 was a great example of how the Defiant, Birds of Prey and Jem' Hadar attack craft all moved more like a fighter while the capital ships maintained the traditional "Tall ship" combat.

Just my take on it. Please... don't taze me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70 /facepalm
04-27-2010, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
A starship in space should be able to roll and bank.
No, no, no, no and more no. There is no up, down left or right t in space, which is why everything is on a bearing. Even if you rotate your starship so that you "inverted," you're still on the exact same bearing. What purpose does this serve? Grats, you're upside down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
A fleet is designed like a air combat squadron
Even more "no." In the Star Trek universe (and more specifically the Federation), a fleet is comprised of a large grouping of starships to fill whatever purpose the fleet is required to fulfill. A fleet of support craft is NOT designed like an air combat squadron, since there are no offensive vessels. The military world and the Star Trek world are very, very separable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
I want a cool one like we had in Star Wars Galaxies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
We could roll and bank in Star Wars Galaxies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
Star Wars Galaxies had this technology seven years ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
In SWG I could operate an entire musical band with dancers and droids and a light show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
And Star Destroyers could pitch, roll, and bank.
This is Star Trek Online, not Star Wars Galaxies. Please, stop trying to compare one to the other. Star Trek and Star Wars are built on two fundamentally different franchises that are built in two fundamentally different principles. Nearly everything about them is different, including space flight (Star Wars is faster and more exciting, like a modern day fighter, while Star Trek is slower and majestic like modern day naval vessels) and space combat. Single-seat fighters do not exist in Star Trek. The attack craft commonly seen in Star Trek are the Federation Peregrine- and Condor-class escorts (Maquis raiders - Both of which can be viewed here. The larger raider, like Chakotay's S.S. Val Jean are Condor-class), Jem'Hadar Attack Ships, Hideki-class Scout Ships (used by the Cardassian Union as attack craft during the Dominion War), and Klingon Birds-of-Prey.

But lets put all the blah blah blah aside, and let me ask you one very important question. In Star Trek Online, what purpose would the ability to have your ship perform a barrel roll serve? While I do think it would be neat to write a command line that would make my big, huge Star Cruiser perform an Immelman, it wouldn't be very beneficial to me whatsoever.


In this long post of quotes, I cannot forget my most favorite quote of all:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyltemnstra
Hollywood actors are not "experts" in starship combat tactics.
Forum posters are not "experts" in starship combat tactics either.
Reply

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