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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-06-2010, 10:06 AM
Quote:
What part of this are you not getting?
The part where you get killed at full shields with full hull. By which I mean, it hardly ever happens to me. And yes, you have "screwed up", if you let him point at you straight on! Switch out whatever Sci boff you currently use for one with Tractor beam, and if he gets too close to the 90 degree arc, hit him with tractor beam. Or Jam sensors. Or evasive. There are loads and loads of counters.

And who mentioned real life? Not me. You've never played games where you get killed instantly if you don't do something? Never played an FPS huh....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mise View Post
The part where you get killed at full shields with full hull. By which I mean, it hardly ever happens to me. And yes, you have "screwed up", if you let him point at you straight on! Switch out whatever Sci boff you currently use for one with Tractor beam, and if he gets too close to the 90 degree arc, hit him with tractor beam. Or Jam sensors. Or evasive. There are loads and loads of counters.

And who mentioned real life? Not me. You've never played games where you get killed instantly if you don't do something? Never played an FPS huh....


Yeah I don't play FPS for that very reason. If I want that kinda realism I'll join the army. Don't even get me on sniping in non-tournament FPS games. FPS communities are often overly competitive and take great enjoyment out of harassing those who don't play as good as they do with nasty messages and rude comments. But we're not talking about a super competitive FPS with a community that's a perfect example of social Darwinism, with the noobs being fed to the leets and with game play dynamics always favoring elitism over accessibility, we're talking about an MMO that is constantly under going changes.

Anyway, I don't think I was clear from the beginning, I'm only referring to 4 or 5 man teams on elite, not just myself on elite. With that many ships buzzing around it's nearly imposable to prevent a ship from targeting you. Even with a 5 man team there are not enough tractor beams to keep every ship facing the other way. It's simply imposable to keep all ships facing away from you at any given time. It can not be done.

I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 or 3 vs 1 on elite, I'm talking about a 5 man team on elite vs (on average) 4 frigate, 2 cruisers, a science vessel an escort and a battleship or two. Explain to me how 5 people are supposed to keep all of those ships facing away from you.

1 vs 1, when my shields are down and I take a hit, yeah, that's on me, but the damage seldom exceed anything unreasonable in 1 vs 1. Even verses 3 frigates on elites, you can keep the ships at bay with skills and maneuverability. With 2 people grouped up on elite the damage is still reasonable and even though there are more ships buzzing around it's manageable.

It's when you have a 4 or 5 man teams that this kind of outrageous damage starts to pop up. To me this says that there is a scaling issue that needs to be looked into.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-07-2010, 02:20 AM
There's a couple things you can do here. You could be super-coordinated on the defensive side, cross healing and buffing resistances in a coordinated fashion. Abilities like EPtS reduce damage to shields as a straight % (24% for rank 1), and if you have 2 copies they can be cycled with no downtime. Transfer shield strength also provides a straight % damage reduction to shields, as well as Extend Shields. Note that these are % damage reductions, not resistances, which means they are additive, so with all three of them you can actually become invulnerable to shields for quite a long time... Certainly long enough to take out the Escorts and Frigates anyway.

The second thing you could do is to use AoE Tractor Beam Repulsors to break the mobs up a bit. One guy can pop RSP, a HoT and some damage reducing abilities, fly below them, and repel them way above you. Their firing arcs will be totally screwed up and they'll come back into the danger zone roughly one at a time. As luck would have it, the fastest ones are also the weakest ones (frigates + escort), so your DPS (hopefully you'll have 2 escorts yourself) will mince through these in no time. After that it should be straightforward, since there's 5 of you and only 4 of them (and one of them is a Sci vessel, which in my experience is completely harmless after the initial FBP).

I'm sure there are other strategies for defeating these enemies; I don't have a lot of experience in full 5 man teams. If you're not into FPSs, there are plenty of games with "boss fights" that you can't kill the "normal" way, and have to use some kind of technique or tactic. Indeed, MMOs are full of them - though the elite exploration / patrol missions in STO are unique in that you have almost unlimited free reign on designing a tactic that works for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mise View Post
There's a couple things you can do here. You could be super-coordinated on the defensive side, cross healing and buffing resistances in a coordinated fashion. Abilities like EPtS reduce damage to shields as a straight % (24% for rank 1), and if you have 2 copies they can be cycled with no downtime. Transfer shield strength also provides a straight % damage reduction to shields, as well as Extend Shields. Note that these are % damage reductions, not resistances, which means they are additive, so with all three of them you can actually become invulnerable to shields for quite a long time... Certainly long enough to take out the Escorts and Frigates anyway.

The second thing you could do is to use AoE Tractor Beam Repulsors to break the mobs up a bit. One guy can pop RSP, a HoT and some damage reducing abilities, fly below them, and repel them way above you. Their firing arcs will be totally screwed up and they'll come back into the danger zone roughly one at a time. As luck would have it, the fastest ones are also the weakest ones (frigates + escort), so your DPS (hopefully you'll have 2 escorts yourself) will mince through these in no time. After that it should be straightforward, since there's 5 of you and only 4 of them (and one of them is a Sci vessel, which in my experience is completely harmless after the initial FBP).

I'm sure there are other strategies for defeating these enemies; I don't have a lot of experience in full 5 man teams. If you're not into FPSs, there are plenty of games with "boss fights" that you can't kill the "normal" way, and have to use some kind of technique or tactic. Indeed, MMOs are full of them - though the elite exploration / patrol missions in STO are unique in that you have almost unlimited free reign on designing a tactic that works for you.
Wow, you're right all those tactics work! That's why we use them!

Except you have those torpedoes that deal 60k+ damage every so often. 3 torpedoes from a HYT salvo dealing 40k a peace will still kill you with bleed though, and if it doesn't you're every so close to death (I run a healers, don't lecture me on how to triage a critical ship next). When you have, say, 50% shields 40k to your shields twice will rip your shields apart, then the 3rd torpedo (plus the bleed though from the first 2) is liable to kill you. They so hard and so fast there's nothing to react to. Even skills that bolster you resistances seem to have little effect as I see the same damage ranged dealt to myself weather I use 2 +25% kinetic resist consoles or none.

Look, believe me, if conventional tactics applies here, I'd be using them but this isn't something about tactics. But conventional tactics do not apply here. This isn't about reacting to actions you can counter, this is about random, insane damage spikes. Not every torpedo deals damage in excess of 40k.

I've been hit form between 8k and 18k before and accept those as a fair guess as to what the damage is meant to be (or close enough). Based on everything I've encountered thus far I have come up with the following possibilities to why it's bugged.
  • I believe the mobs have waaaay to much of a bonus to their critical damage modifier or that there's some other bug with scaling their damage.
  • Based on the use of consoles and abilities I do not thing that the torpedoes are actually doing kinetic damage but if they are there's is some kind of penetration abilities that makes resistance futile.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-07-2010, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raso
Anyway, I don't think I was clear from the beginning, I'm only referring to 4 or 5 man teams on elite, not just myself on elite. With that many ships buzzing around it's nearly imposable to prevent a ship from targeting you. Even with a 5 man team there are not enough tractor beams to keep every ship facing the other way. It's simply imposable to keep all ships facing away from you at any given time. It can not be done.

I'm not talking about 1 vs 1 or 3 vs 1 on elite, I'm talking about a 5 man team on elite vs (on average) 4 frigate, 2 cruisers, a science vessel an escort and a battleship or two. Explain to me how 5 people are supposed to keep all of those ships facing away from you.

1 vs 1, when my shields are down and I take a hit, yeah, that's on me, but the damage seldom exceed anything unreasonable in 1 vs 1. Even verses 3 frigates on elites, you can keep the ships at bay with skills and maneuverability. With 2 people grouped up on elite the damage is still reasonable and even though there are more ships buzzing around it's manageable.

It's when you have a 4 or 5 man teams that this kind of outrageous damage starts to pop up. To me this says that there is a scaling issue that needs to be looked into.
I won't say NPC launched torpedoes on elite mode don't hit hard, because they do. The only time I've seen them hit dangerously hard is when I get hit by several high yield volleys at once. This is mostly a problem when you have several players in the group, as the number of ships on the other side scales to compensate. But I'm not sure what you're expecting here. The torpedo damage from a single vessel on elite mode needs to hit hard enough to be reasonably dangerous. So, it stands to reason that reasonably dangerous is going to turn into downright deadly when you're facing several of these vessels at once.

Have you considered lowering the difficulty level to advanced? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with suggestion; people need to remember that the point of the difficulty slider is to make combat more challenging and not a chest thumping contest. Just because you can handle elite mode solo doesn't mean you have to use elite mode in a group. All you need to use is the setting that challenges you without irritating you in the process. If that's advanced instead of elite when there are 5 players in the group, then who cares? As long as everyone is being challenged by the current setting then the name of the setting itself is irrelevant.

As for the torpedoes, I doubt I'm telling you anything you don't already know. But, like I said, the only time I've found them to be panic-level dangerous with larger player groups is when I get hit by several high yield torpedoes at once. This usually happens at the very start of the fight; it seems like one of the first things most NPC ships do is fire up a high yield torpedo buff. I try to have my group eliminate those buffs before the torpedoes are fired with subnucleonic beam. The rest are just coming, and there's not much you can do to change that. I try to minimize the damage by banking my ship so the torpedoes barrage (which is always slightly staggered by at least a few seconds total) impacts more than one shield facing. I combine that with Brace For Impact, because the opening volley is pretty much the moment I need that ability most for. I toss in an Emergency Power to Shields the moment they start to buckle, but before all of the torpedoes have arrived.

Five seconds later, the dust clears and my shields are low and 20-40% of my hull has vanished. I pop a few repairs and the rest of the fight isn't nearly as bad, as the individual torpedo attacks become much more staggered while everyone jockeys for a firing position.

This is on my cruiser, by the way, where I try to tank for my group. My question is why are you, in a group full of other players, tanking all the torpedo hits as a science vessel? Don't you have a cruiser in your group to soak up most of the damage?

By the way, don't put too much faith in those two 25% kinetic resist consoles. Diminishing returns is a pain in the rear and drags the total down to, what, 36% resistance? Stack on a 55% kinetic resist from Brace For Impact and you're up an additional 14% for a total of 50% resistance. With just one of those consoles the same sequence gets you to around 46% instead. That extra console isn't going to perform too many miracles when you really need it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-07-2010, 03:08 PM
I under stand it's supposed to be super hard but there has to be a limit.

If can see being dealt 25k damage when you're snared in a tractor beam, your shield facings are down and you get hit be combined fire from that side. Your group failed to heal you, you failed to break the tractor beam lock and you were completely immobile.

But under ideal circumstances I think 30k to 80k (and up) damage is just outages. No one can survive 80k damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-07-2010, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raso
I under stand it's supposed to be super hard but there has to be a limit.

If can see being dealt 25k damage when you're snared in a tractor beam, your shield facings are down and you get hit be combined fire from that side. Your group failed to heal you, you failed to break the tractor beam lock and you were completely immobile.

But under ideal circumstances I think 30k to 80k (and up) damage is just outages. No one can survive 80k damage.
Well, shields reduce kinetic damage by 75%. An 80k torpedo hit striking a shield is lowered to 20k damage. Then the remaining damage has to apply against your hull resists. Anyone can easily survive that.

Honestly, the only time I've seen severe torpedo hits (from a single torpedo) was from high yield plasma torpedoes.. which should be shot down before every reaching the player; they can't be ignored on elite mode.

"Super hard" is going to turn into "super impossible" beyond a point for any one individual. I don't think you can afford to put all your eggs into one basket in a 5-man group, there's just too much firepower directed against one target. Players complain about being focus-fired in PvP and these elite NPCs can hit much harder.

Have you tried dividing the burden up? Every player participating in your elite mode group should be able to solo an elite mode mission. If they can solo elite mode, then they can solo an elite escort, an elite battleship, or 3 elite frigates. If 5 elite escorts or 15 elite frigates show up, try dividing them up so everyone is tanking their fair share. After your group is confident that aggro has been established, start focus firing down one vessel at a time. At least the damage is being split up to something easily manageable then. No one starship can be expected to save the day against those types of odds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-08-2010, 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raso
Except you have those torpedoes that deal 60k+ damage every so often. 3 torpedoes from a HYT salvo dealing 40k a peace will still kill you with bleed though, and if it doesn't you're every so close to death (I run a healers, don't lecture me on how to triage a critical ship next). When you have, say, 50% shields 40k to your shields twice will rip your shields apart, then the 3rd torpedo (plus the bleed though from the first 2) is liable to kill you. They so hard and so fast there's nothing to react to. Even skills that bolster you resistances seem to have little effect as I see the same damage ranged dealt to myself weather I use 2 +25% kinetic resist consoles or none.
You obviously haven't understood the part about shield damage reduction then, because you can become invulnerable if you stack enough shield damage reduction. EPtS 1 gives 25% damage reduction to shields, RSF gives 50% damage reduction to shields, and 125 shield power gives the remaining 25% damage reduction to shields, which means that your shields will be completely invulnerable to all damage (100% damage reduction to shields -- note that this is NOT "resistance" but "reduction"). Those are abilities that any good cruiser will have. When those wear off (EPtS can be cycled with zero downtime, but RSF only lasts 30 seconds), there's still Transfer Shield Strength (20% damage reduction) and Extend Shields (35% damage reduction).

My own experience is that damage mitigation does work, so forgive me if I believe my own anecdotes over yours. Brace for impact and hazard emitters, for example, do appreciably reduce the damage done by torpedoes. And if you fly directly on top or underneath the battlecruisers, you won't get hit by their torpedoes at all...

@Combadge: I disagree that splitting the group up and having each member take on different mobs individually is a good idea, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-08-2010, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mise View Post
@Combadge: I disagree that splitting the group up and having each member take on different mobs individually is a good idea, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion.
I wouldn't normally do that, but if we're talking about a 12-15 elite-mode frigates.. uh.. that's a lot of damage focused on one ship. I still recommend everyone focusing their attack on the same vessel, but if each player in the group is capable of soloing an elite mode encounter (i.e. 3 frigates), I don't see why the damage can't be split up amongst the group. Even if everyone else in the group is tanking 2 ships (and everyone should be able to do that pretty easily), that still leaves 4-7 for the tank. It's not like he's going to be bored.

Again, this assumes your group can solo elite mode encounters individually. If someone in your group has designed their build in such a way that they're super-healer/damage-dealer, but crumbles to dust the moment someone points a beam array at them, then obviously this isn't going to work.
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