Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
07-01-2010, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
And in case you stubbornly refuse to notice, other people who have leveled Klingons on PvP don't uniformly agree with you.
And in case you stubbornly refuse to notice, a good portion of them do agree with me. That's why we're having this discussion. Because there's a difference of opinion.

You want Cryptic to ignore us because we're the minority. I want Cryptic to continue to use new factions to cater to minority playstyles, while also continuing to beef up the PVE experience for the Federation majority.

You say that having the Klingons be PVP-centric adds nothing to the game. I say that it adds to my enjoyment of the game, and that of a fair number of other players. You say that I and those others and our enjoyment is irrelevant because we're the minority. I obviously disagree.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
07-01-2010, 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
You say that I and those others and our enjoyment is irrelevant because we're the minority. I obviously disagree.
Your enjoyment depends on depriving other people of a gameplay opportunity they want, while the converse is only true to the extent of people like you being elitist and not wanting dabblers polluting your purist PvP faction. At that point, I don't even care about numbers. However, the numbers conveniently provide a financial incentive to Cryptic to act in the way I think more reasonable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
07-01-2010, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
Your enjoyment depends on depriving other people of a gameplay opportunity they want, while the converse is only true to the extent of people like you being elitist and not wanting dabblers trying your PvP. At that point, I don't even care about numbers.
No, my enjoyment depends on Cryptic prioritizing their development resources differently than you would like them to.

You're arguing that somehow, Cryptic is wronging a substantial portion of its playerbase by having the Klingon faction be PVP-centered. I'm arguing that that's not the case. That, in fact, they're pleasing a portion of their playerbase by doing so.

I mean, in point of fact, you've gone on record on these forums criticizing the PVE content that Cryptic has put in on Klingon side. So they could spend countless Dev hours making low level story missions for Klingon side so that the minority of STO players who really want to roll Klingon alts but won't because they don't have that type of mission can do so...

...and then after they've spent all those hours, you'll probably just be here saying that the missions stink and are boring. So what's the point?

As you yourself admitted, expanding the PVP game benefits everyone, of all factions, in this game. Adding low level story mission to the Klingon side benefits, potentially, a small subset, and will reduce the enjoyment of others. So by you're own argument, you should agree with me that they're better off working to expand and fortify the PVP game than wasting time on one faction's levelling content.

Having a PVP-focused faction isn't 'harming' anyone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
07-01-2010, 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
However, the numbers conveniently provide a financial incentive to Cryptic to act in the way I think more reasonable.
You haven't given any evidence of that. I would argue, for two reasons, that spending Dev resources on story missions for Klingon levelling content is a bad financial move for Cryptic for two reasons:

1) I know a number of people who can't stand Federation gameplay on this game, and were ready to leave, but discovered a playstyle they prefer on Klingon side. If Klingon side is changed and they get bored and leave, that's fewer subscribers. Even if that's not a substantial number of people, its still a negative financial impact (however small).

2) I would argue that there are far more people getting bored with and leaving STO over a lack of endgame, boredom with the current PVP options, and other similar issues, than there are who are ready to leave because they can't level a Klingon alt in a particular way. Every Dev hour spent on Klingon levelling missions is a Dev hour not spent on PVP development, not spent on customization options, not spent on new ships, not spent on endgame, etc. etc. etc.

The numbers provide a financial incentive for Cryptic to leave things the way they are at low levels, and to continue to develop endgame options of all types for all factions. Things like PVP, STF's, new sectors, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
07-01-2010, 08:49 PM
Personally, I'd like to see the Klingon faction get PvE content equivalent to the Federation, and I'd like to see each new faction get the same. I think it's safe to say that most PvE players would get tired of playing the same Federation content over and over again. More factions mean more storylines to explore, and different approaches to building characters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
07-01-2010, 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
...and then after they've spent all those hours, you'll probably just be here saying that the missions stink and are boring. So what's the point?
If they don't make it right, then sure, it's wasted effort. I happen to hope they might actually learn from feedback. The specific problem I percieved with the Klingon exploration content wasn't its purely combative nature - far from it - but the ludicrous half-assedness of it. The mission text was even less appropriate for most scenarios than on the Starfleet side, 'scan x things' missions were ported over pointlessly as 'destroy X inert objects with nonsensically beefy health bars that don't even have the courtesy to show up on scanners', and the like.

I'm certain that you're similarly hopeful that future PvP content isn't as half-assed as what exists now, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
As you yourself admitted, expanding the PVP game benefits everyone, of all factions, in this game. Adding low level story mission to the Klingon side benefits, potentially, a small subset, and will reduce the enjoyment of others. So by you're own argument, you should agree with me that they're better off working to expand and fortify the PVP game than wasting time on one faction's levelling content.
You're assuming that the people involved in writing PvE mission content would actually be effective at making more PvP activities that don't suck. I suspect part of the problem is that they actually don't have anyone with a strong PvP skillset, and I think they should change that.

Furthermore, your reduction in enjoyment would come from a source that I simply don't respect. Period. If you only want to play with hardcore PvPers, go to the effort and network with others. It's what the Starfleet side's good PvPers do. Well, that or actually suck it up and try to lead us unwashed masses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMiracle View Post
Having a PVP-focused faction isn't 'harming' anyone.
Harm wouldn't be the proper word for it. Disappoint and, more importantly for Cryptic, "make less likely to subscribe" is definitely the case, though. If this were a generic IP created by Cryptic that might be the fine, even a good and novel idea, but this isn't. Shoehorning the different civilizations from the Star Trek setting that have broad and multifaceted fanbases into narrow little gameplay boxes does do the IP a disservice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
07-02-2010, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
You're assuming that the people involved in writing PvE mission content would actually be effective at making more PvP activities that don't suck. I suspect part of the problem is that they actually don't have anyone with a strong PvP skillset, and I think they should change that.
I wouldn't go that far. I'd just say that I'm assuming that the devs who would be working on low level Klingon pve content could also be working on some feature or another of endgame, or other parts of the game that need beefing up, that would benefit every player of the game, not a subset.

But we're pretty much at an impass here. As you, and the poster above you, have been pointing out, there are Federation players bored with playing the PVE story content Fed side who want to use the Klingon faction as a place to roll an alt to alleviate that boredom. As I have been pointing out there's a group of us who enjoy the Klingon faction being PVP-centered. To be blunt, neither of us seem to care about the desires of the other group.

We can keep going back and forth saying the same things over and over, but I don't think its going to get us anywhere.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
07-02-2010, 05:38 AM
I still believe that the Klingon faction at release and even during closed beta was just a product of Cryptic's early desire to put something in the game for those fans of the Klingons whom complained that they had nothing to play designed for them.
It may have been doine fast and only exists hap hazzardly, but with the introduction of more PvE content and a storyline - it will be just fine.
In fact I still stand behind my belief that the Klingon faction is the best way to learn to PvP for beginers and will help such new players gain confidence while doing so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
07-02-2010, 06:58 AM
There are two things I want in this game for me to play it on a regular basis (which I'm not right now).

Peaceful, fun content for Federation side. I'd like to be able to level a significant amount through solving problems instead of shooting them.

On the Klingon side, I want to conquer the foes of the Empire on their own planets and in their own space (PVE content), not just replaying the same PvP matches over and over, that's just too boring.

I don't want the Klingon and Federation gameplay to be the same, I want them to be very different from one another.
Federation = Solution finding PvE gameplay
Klingon = Guns blazing PvE gameplay
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