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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 221
07-02-2010, 11:59 AM
"We're pointing out that yes, Cryptic has swiped some of WoW's good ideas in terms of types of content, but it will take STO time to generate the same quantity of content that WoW has. Just as it took WoW years to generate that content."
Dosn`t have too, you can simply copy a few fun encounters for the start, and go further from there, and it would perfectly fit with all those nice skills we have ingame.

"A lot of people find that kind of play boring. I'm one of them, its why I stopped playing WoW after five years. Every class has a very simple 'best build' and 'best rotation' that anybody can look up online, and you sit for hours in raids hitting the same buttons in the same sequence over and over, specced and geared and even looking exactly like all the other members of your class in the raid."
WoW fixed that problem one few different layers and keep improving that, but every (read nearly all) have some shematics because games have a set of rules.

"A lot of us like this game better because the skill system is much more complex, and when you factor in the variety of available ships, and BOff power combinations, etc. etc. there is a lot more room for innovation, creativity, experimentation, etc. A lot of us enjoy that."
And your choices are useless, you really have to try to make bad decision, or you use the difficult slider, but now, you have cookie cutter stuff again (alot of defensive skill especially) and there is really NO variation in the Skill Using in STO.

"As you yourself point out here, having 'raid' content requires characters to be pigeon-holed into particular roles. Some of us don't want to be pigeon-holed, and not knowing a way around it, aren't interested in raid content. Even WoW is phasing out 25-man raiding now in favor of 10-mans. People like to play games with small groups of friends. The main hurdle to being able to do content shouldn't be trying to find warm bodies and get them to stay online for hours at a time. And people shouldn't have to make their characters into something they don't want in order to do it."
Well making choices is the fun of a game, why else play? You can watch TV if you want or a movie. And if your choices have no effect, it`s boring. A certain pigeon-hole is good, but staying forever into that, and the details don`t change is bad, but WoW already did a few things to change that, and keep improving it. The favour to 10 man is more about organisation of people, and nothing about "friends". Also RAID is a choice, no one forces you, like no one can force you to play a certain role and if they try, get a new raid or reconsider if they are friends.

So i understand your concern, and on a simple layer they are all right but it`s far more complex, i hope i could get you a different view, which may not change your opinion completly but may enhance a few things.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 222
07-02-2010, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by sylvantos View Post
what exactly is right about in these statements he made?

and i am sick of people who seem to think they are comparing wow at 5 years old...most people I am sure are not, many of us where there on its initial launch some where in beta. It's naive to think we mean 5 years when we talk about wow and sto...and by the way his statements are fundimentally wrong in oh so many ways about wow

WoW had ca. five years development time, STO had only two years.
<- wrong STO had 4 years not 2...(wow had 4 years development not 5 and that includes beta) if your going to state facts at least get it right... 2004 - 2008 perpetual entertainment then cryptic took over and they developed for 2 years...so in all 6 years.. cryptic did not throw away everything perpetual did..and it would be wrong to say they did even cryptic said they kept some things.
If you going to talks about getting 'facts straight - GET THEM STRAIGHT. Cryptic stated that beyond a few preliminary design documents, Perpetual had NOTHING usable; AND that their Perpetual's vision that "You're a rank and file crewmember of a ship" approach was NOT a direction that Cryptic saw as doable, so, in the end; all Perpetual did was induce CBS to saddle Cryptic with a hard release date before thei development cycle began. The original 'hard release date was actually supposed to be EARLIER then what we had (2/2/10); but as the date neared , Cryptic showed what they had, and how far along/close they were, and CBS gave them a few more months.

WoW got several AddOns since release, STO did not.. addons? you mean expansions...not everyone is new to wow, for sure when i talk about them i talk about how both faired at launch and in this case how much blizzard put into original vanilla..twice as much as as STO for pve content which meant less end game. Its natural to compare successful games to game of this calibre. Why? because this isnt some little game that is in the backwoods of hillbilly country. Cryptic bought the license, and whether they like it or not, they will be compared to other successful mmo's and its also healthy..whether you like it or not, the fact this game is even being mentioned to the behemoth that is the king of mmo's is a good thing, other mmo's get laughed at like eq2 which was there a lot longer than wow.]

WoW is six years old, STO only six months. Yay for counting but it doesnt account for 1/20 of the content at both launches of this and wow does it? since your so keen to do the coparing of both games too.
I thought you stated you were AROUND at WoW's launch? if you were, I'm sure you heard the Horde player complaints that (by comparison) the Alliance side of the content seemed well thought out, while the Horde side seemed last minute/rushed/tacked on - and the overall Horde artwork was lousy in comparison to the Alliance. Also, there was the aspect of HORRENDOUS server downtime at launch that took them about 3 months to resolve (we'll there was the dreaded 'loot lag' bug that persisted for my 3 year WoW career (played WoW hardcore until [b]Burning Crusade[/B (aka the end of 40 man MC and BWL raiding, which was where I and my Guild was at that point]; off and on afterwards, and decided I was done after Wrath of the Lich King hit- and which I hear still pops up today). Then there was the WoW PvP debacle (you remember, the PvP ranking and rewards system that was touted all through WoW development that the game launched WITHOUT; and which took about one full year to get properly implemanted (and I mean implemented, NOT balanced, which is something WoW has yet to achieve in any way).

WoW has 11 million players, STO does not. That has to be proven, blizzard love to bump up their own hype..its called good business. Most english european realms for leveling from 70 - 80 are virtually dead. I know because my wife plays it much to my horror.
Blizzard actually claimed 13 milliom worldwide subscribers until the sitiuation in China regarding all MMOs. Most reports estimate the U.S.based WoW playerbase at 2 million. As for WoW from 70-80 being 'dead'; I still am RL friends with a lot of my old Guildmates that play; and (I suppose that it depends on your server) at least of ShadowSong and Thichondrius there's no shortage of 70-80 level players (all using gearscore to form 'viable' groups too.

Blizzard earns a crapload of money every month, because of so many players. Cryptic does not.
Then I d suggest something very simple to cryptic, lower their over inflated prices for their subs and put more in game items in for the loot happy people...me i dont care either way about the loot, but the stupid prices on the subs eerr yes i do.
How is the subscription overpriced? $15.00 a month has been the MMO standard (set by EQ soon after the first expansion Ruins of Kunark released in 2001. Notably, that 'base price' hasn't risen for ANY western MMO since that time (nearly 10 years). Also, you DO realize that Blizzard also has a store and makes money from that as well (Hell, they charge $30.00 U.S. for a character server transfer). Plus I don't even think you would argue that even IF WoW's sub numbers are inflated, they have at worst 2 - 5 million subscribers, and that's at least 20-50 times what Cryptic gets gross in sub fees - so sorry, I don't see how you can dispute any claim that Blizzard DOES pull in a CRAPLOAD more cash and has WAY MORE funds availabe for WoW game expansion and development. To argue otherwise just makes you look uninformed.

Blizzard has 150 people working on the game, Cryptic does not. all i can say on that is your making it all up completely there, you have no insider knowledge and your simple grasp of that dreadful game is very rudimentary. You know no more than I how many people work at which company, let alone how many blizz staff work on what project.

dear poster in green, please if your trying to state facts of truth at least know what your talking about. I dont know if other people are comparing wow now to what wow was like at launch and comparing that SUCCESSFUL game to this one..if yes then they are naive and ignorant, but if as I suspect these people aren't doing that, then they are pretty much doing as I would and compare the two at both launches. thats my interpretation of it.
Givn some of your own assertions above, I thimnk this might be a case of 'pot meet kettle'. Granted no one has data on specific devweloment team sizes, BUT with more of a cash influx; to believe Blizzard doesn't have a larger developmment team on WoW when compared to STO just plain defies logic.

The guys from our development team are working around the clock to make new content for STO! Do you seriously think WoW was perfect on release? It may have been better than STO is now, I needed to add this statment because I want to say...who says wow might have been better? ah the old chestnut that it had more content for people to play with, while STO is floundering because they failed to put the meat on the bones of the game at launch they did not listen to their beta testers and jumped headlong in hoping to **** trek fans with their money after the success of star trek 11..why else would they have been so keen to forget to add the meat on the bones?..simple mistake and costly to with the amount that has walked away after the private beta. each to their own. I am crying out for content so people dont leave sto, we cant afford more and more people leaving, it just leaves the game and dev with a very bad rep, hopefully now you see my point. we cannot afford to loose this game, no one else will give it to us and since sgw is dead..well at least i think it it is after their dev comments from the start of the year. 5 or 6 years and counting and 1 beta then bankrupt..heh?
Please show me your HARD numbers that show 'STO is floundering'. As for WoW's success, even Blizzard acknowledges that a number of unique circumstances contributed to what WoW became; and it wasn't necissarily due to the strength of the content or game mechanics. WoW was effitively a clone of Everquest (and FYI many Blizzard Devs played in a high Level EQ raid guild - Legacy of Steel); and went so far to admit that they basically tried to take what the EQ players liked about EQ - and leave out the horrendous timesinks and insane nearly arcane methods of getting required 'named' mobs to appear, etc. Blizzard's prior reputation on games like Diablo also helped' BUT 2004 was a lot different than 2010 with regards to MMOs so I don't think you can compare WoW's launch and subsequent success (which actually wasn't that rapid and 5 months post WoW launch, there were STILL plenty or articles wondering if WoW would in fact be successful in the long run.)

Most reviews of STO state "The game overall is fun"; but eventually point to a lack of content - thus Cryptic's fairly aggressive approach to improve exsisting mechanics and add new mechanics and also add new content all very much based directly on player feedback. IMO - when the Season 2.0 update hits, I do think will be at bthe point most players would have expected it to be at launch (ie both the Fed and klingon factions with PvE content; a number of ship interiors available, minigames available, and a diplomatic, non 'pew pew' option for diplomatic players, a end game raid zone (theBorg Sector and STFs); and an end game high level zone not based on raiding.

As long as the STO dev team can continue the current rate of development, I see STO lasting as long as any of the longer running MMOs out there; and while I don't think it (or any new MMO, INCLUDING SW:ToR) will get to WoW's subscriber level; realize it WAS NOT designed to directly compete with or challenge WoW (something that I DON'T think can be said of SW:ToR <--- I think Lucas Arts IS expecting a 'WoW beater' with it, and if BioWare can't deliver and maintain WoW level sub numbers, Licas Arts will put it into maintanence mode quick, and just be content with what it and SWG brings in terms of profit - time will tell).

Honestly, if EVE can survive and continue to thrive (and it does); I don't see STO shutting down anytime soon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 223
07-02-2010, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
(or any new MMO, INCLUDING SW:ToR) will get to WoW's subscriber level; realize it WAS NOT designed to directly compete with or challenge WoW (something that I DON'T think can be said of SW:ToR <--- I think Lucas Arts IS expecting a 'WoW beater' with it, and if BioWare can't deliver and maintain WoW level sub numbers, Licas Arts will put it into maintanence mode quick, and just be content with what it and SWG brings in terms of profit - time will tell).
The untold story behind TOR: They not only expect it to be the WoW killer...it HAS to be the WoW killer.

Your estimate of 2 millions U.S. WoW subs is really high, even for the peak of popularity. Right now, pre-Cataclysm, they're at about 1.2 million estimated in the U.S., with hopes that Cataclysm will get that up to around 1.5 again.

Its been stated that for SWTOR to be profitable given the amount of money already invested in it, it will need at least 1 million U.S. subscribers. 1 million. Just to be profitable.

I would argue that there are not 1 million potential MMO subscribers, even for Star Wars, out there, who aren't part of the WoW playerbase also. This means that in order to be profitable, SWTOR is going to have to pull away a massive percentage of WoW's current subscriber base.

I have no doubt that SWTOR will release big. But it has to be the biggest thing ever in order just to justify its own existence.

Compare that to STO, which Cryptic has publically stated they can run profitably with 50,000 subscribers? STO isn't going anywhere.
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