Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
08-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
LOL! Howdy Fed! Welcome to the Klingon Gameplay forum!
Actually I play both, or did until the system ate my klingon (which I'm in the midst of trying to have restored, but apparently Season Two broke this GM function). I'd actually be a Lieutenant General by now if the character weren't gone for the past ten days. I'd made Major General prior to this.

I had a lengthy post on this in the Bug Section... go ahead and check my posting history since you seem incapable of accepting that I'd play klingon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
About those fed cruisers...the absolute truth is that in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they are practically unkillable. That is truth. Do you PvP? What do you fly?
If you're finding Cruisers on the Fed side "unkillable" you're doing something wrong. They switch off RSP and stacking shield/hull buffs, all of which are available to the Negh'var. The Science Captains on your team should be SNB'ing them to dispel those, or preferably focusing on the Escorts, just as the Feds should be focusing on the Raptors and Birds of Prey. If you're trying to blow up Cruisers as a priority then you're doing it wrong.

I fly (a) an Assault Cruiser with my Vice Admiral, I ditched the Galaxy Refit for it because the Refits comparatively aren't as good (you'd know this had you'd flown one), (b) an Advanced Escort, (c) a Recon Science Vessel, (d) a Hegh'ta Bird of Prey (or will again when when my klingon is restored), (e) a Negh'var on Tribble with the same character respec'ed (and will begin levelling a separate character on Holodeck toward that goal once my Hegh'ta captain is restored and I can bring him up those last couple of levels).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
Next, the Feds have how many cruiser variants? Come on...be honest. How many? Hehe. The Klingons have exactly....one. Yep. one. To your what - at least three? Each of which has a different type of BO slot that can be leveraged?
This has precisely what to do with how a Fed Cruiser balances against a Negh'var? This is you trying to straw man, Regardless...

As far as how many, there are the Assault and Star which are practically identical, the only difference being a swapping of one Engineering Console and Ensign BO slot for Science variations of the same. There is also the Galaxy X which you have to buy or beg for, which in the end is less useful than probably any other ship at that tier (what amounts to a single shot BO3 with a massive cooldown that frequently misses, and cannons it can't use effectively due to having a turn rate nearly comparable with a Vo'Quv, one less BO power, one less console, one less aft weapon). Alternately there is the Galaxy Retrofit, which again has the crippling turn rate of the T4 ship, is lacking a console, and has a special power of limited use (increases turn rate, but can't be used with full impulse, lowers ship durability, had a massive recharge).

So they have four, two of which are almost identical, and two of which aren't as good.

Now, lets not forget that we've been told that a Vor'cha refit is on the way, as are Gorn, Orion and Nausican ships. Each have a Cruiser. If all are implemented that will amount to five total, likely with more variation than is seen on the Federation side. So... what's your point?

What you think that because the Feds have more ships at the moment that when more klingon ships are added they should be better than any that the Feds have access to, or will? Because that's what you're asking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
And let's talk about shields. Sigh.
Yes, as said, the Fed Cruisers are slightly more durable. Conversely the Negh'var can do more damage thanks to cannons, and better alter shield facings thanks to it's manoeuvrability, thus distributing damage across it's various shields which the Fed Cruisers can't do, thus increasing the Negh'var's survivability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
Okay...the Neg does have advantages....cannons. Yep. There is at least one Fed cruiser that can mount those too, right? Cloak..yep, that is an advantage. Sort of. Oh! Doesn't a Fed cruiser have that also? Hmm...the same one that has some sort of phaser lance and that can mount cannons? Odd how that works out, isn't it?
Go count the number of Gal-Xs using cannons. You'll find that number approaches zero because it has a worse turn rate than anything other than the Vo'Quv. You ever try to fly a Vo'Quv with cannons? It doesn't work. The turn rate and fire arcs don't mesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
There is only ONE thing that the Neghvar has that is the envy of the Federation, and that is manueverability. That is something that is better. One advantage out of....three, or four?
(Your forgot to mention useable cannons, and compared to the Gal-X it also has an extra aft weapon, an extra console, an extra BO slot, two and a half times the crew, and better inertia)

Oh, and that manoeuvrability advantage is massive. The Exploration has a turn rate of five, the Assault/Stars have a turn rate of six. The Negh'var, by comparison, has a turn rate of nine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTempest
I don't mean to be too sarcastic..but since you ARE Federation...

Sure. You keep telling yourself that. In the meantime, why don't you actually try comparing the ships and trying out the retrofits.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
08-11-2010, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matunus
I love the way you all claim that a fed ship is so much better ( in the right hands comment) love that one. I would have loved to have a T5 ship with a little extra and drop the gimmicks but we didn't get that we got a T4 ship with a gimmick and i have no problem with the klink faction getting the same thing. and Ztempest I have a klink gen that i play on everyday i play so please don't go the we pvp more so we know bit plz.
Matunus,

I can only address what I see in PvP so far...and for some reason, I do see a LOT of those cloaking cruisers in there....not sure what it will be at at VA, but hey...it will be interesting.

The best ship at the VA level is probably going to the refitted Defiant. It is essentially a raptor with better manueverability. I am not sure about the shield and hull difference. I will have to get one to compare.

And this may surprise you..but I have FOUR STO charactors. Two Fed, Two Klingon...and they are all RA/BG 6 or higher..so I have seen both sides of the coin so to speak...and I am being truthfull in that the Fed ships, on paper, do appear to be superior vessels. Now...I primarily play Klingon, mostly because I like the teamwork aspect of the faction...and I am on the winning end of PvP more often than not, but that is because of teamwork and the fact that all of my fellow team-mates all know the map and know what to do because we have all played it so many times while leveling that we know these places like the backs of our hands.

Whether the fed refits are souped up T4s is a matter of opinion and perspective...they have T5 hulls and shields, and T5 weapons, T5 bridge officer positions, and a special power...I would say that regardless of complaints -- and I have seen a few on the Fed side -- that makes these ship special..and they should be. They are not merely T4 makeovers. I wonder...has anyone particapated in VA PvP yet? What was the percentage of refits in the game on the Fed side? I would be curious to know....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
08-11-2010, 08:22 PM
Happy...

Sigh.

Look. I ALSO play both sides of the coin. Look at my post right above this one. I have two Upper RAs and two Major Generals. On the Klingon side I fly a Neghvar with my Major General, my other Major General flies a Raptor...so I am somewhat conversant with the strengths and weaknesses of both. On the Fed side I fly a Tac and a Sci -- so I know all about SNB both from dealing it out and receiving it. And trust me...I do not focus on Fed cruisers in PvP. That is a frustrating and fruitless exercise...Tacs and Sci Ships first, then concentrated fire from the entire group on the odd cruiser that is in PvP. That is the way to do it. When you really get screwed is when five cruisers show up, and all of them are teamed up, cooperating, and healing each other. That typically ends up being a LONG game.

Now....I am not being spiteful or cynical, but you actually proved every point I made earlier. I am not going to dive into it because I have to work tomorrow, and I want to get a bit of sleep..but I will address one thing -- you keep mentioning cannons on the Neghvar...the truth is that you can put cannons on it, and you can use them effectively, but as you well know, with one LT tac slot, you only get CRF 1, and then of course you will probably pick up HYT 1. To be frank, that is a mistake. A Neghvar with Dual Beam banks, overload phaser 1, and HYT 2 with front and back torps will tend to get a significantly higher DPS rate than a comparably equipped Neghvar witih cannons. Why? Because even with a high turn rate and two RCPs slotted, you still won't be able to bring that 45 degree cannon arc to bear anywhere near as often as you will those 90 degree beams. I should know. I typically am 2nd or 3rd in DPS and often 1st in healing in typical PvP matches...I get out-dpsed by BoPs or the occasional Raptor captain that knows what he is doing. I have experimented with both cannons and beams on the Neghvar extensively, and have found that dual beam banks in the front and phaser arrays in the rear is the way to go. Admittedly, this might be a playstyle issue...but even when grouped with other Neghvars I tend to out-dps them. 'Nough Said.

Another thing you dismiss far too casually. The whole variant issue. You know what -- it would be SWEET to swap out my engineer ensign for either a Tac or Sci ensign. Do you have any idea as to what can be done with that? I am sure you do - after all, just like me, you play both sides, right? The Sci can give you all sorts of neat and nasty little abilities, even at ensign, and an extra tac ensign on a Neghvar means that I could have an extra beam or torp buff that can be used while the other two are on on cooldown. That alone, depending on your playstyle, could equal as much as a 30% or more (guestimate) increase in dps over the course of a typical PvP match.

Look - I am not passionate about this at all, believe it or not...so, consider this.

Maybe, like others have said, the Fed Refits are crap. I can accept that. Some Feds tend to think so based on a few posts I have seen in the forums...although there tends to be a lot of silence regarding the Defiant, which leads me to believe that it is actually fairly powerfull. I have not flown any of them..not sure I will, but I might, just to learn for myself what they are talking about. I would like to hear from a VA player what PvP looks like at the VA level. How many Defiant refits are there? How about cloaked cruisers?

However, that point is totally irrelevant to this post. Whether the Fed refits are unsatisfactory or not is between the Fed player base and the Devs, and I could care less. What I AM concerned about are the upcoming Klingon refits.

Once again, I think that "no gimmicks" is the way to go. Just up our shields and hull, give us an LT or LCR universal slot (additional), and believe it or not, you will make the Klingons happy. Well...you would make ME happy. I do not claim to speak for the entire Klingon player base, but my gut-level feeling is that such a move would be a positive thing.

And Happy -- I never, ever said that you ONLY fly Fed...but it is obvious which side you favor, even if you have flown Klingon in the past. In this game, the "small" things, like better durability (even if it is "slight"), the odd ensign slot that crosses over, etc, makes a BIG difference. I was not going to mention this...but you know what I think I have observed in PvP? I think that the times when the Feds have really whipped the Klingons, the Fed players are using Klingon skills and tactics -- and that leads me to believe that those players probably also have Klingon mains. Good ships do not win PvP battles...teamwork and good players do. When Feds team up, support each other, have a plan, and are a team, they are extremely difficult to beat. That is the truth. That is also where you will see the edge that better ships can give, because the Feds do have better ships.

Want proof? You flew Klingon, right? How about that Klingon Sci ship, eh? Yep. That is what I thought. There is no such animal. You can trick out a BoP as a make-do Sci ship because of the universal slots...but it will be nowhere near as capable as a Fed Sci ship, and you know it. Sci ships can make or break PvP because of the special skills that they bring to the table..which is why they are one of the first ships I always go after in a PvP match. I bring this up because that is just one more aspect of the difference between the factions where the Feds have the edge over the Klingons. Now...what makes me admire the Klingons more, and which is why I primarily play them now despite having two high-ranking Fed characters, is that Klingons still consistently win even when disadvantaged. That is admirable, and it is all due to teamwork. As proof...I was in my Sci ship (Fed) just yesterday, and we took on a Klingon fleet in a Capture and Hold. Our team was outnumbered by one or two Klingons, and we beat the pants off of them. Why? Because we were smart, we teamed up, and we cooperated and backed each other up - just like the Klingons do in most matches.

In any case...my point remains simple -- better ships, more variety, and refits that make sense. What more can a player ask for?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
08-11-2010, 09:21 PM
Ztemp

Like you I have many toons Hell to many probably, 2 eneg 1 tac 1 sci all va's and a tac gen and a up and coming eng klink. I have and flown all the refits and been in pvp with them all and i can tell ya especially on my eng ill take my star or assult over my refit for pvp any day. also on my klink i have flown the rap, bop and the cruiser in pvp so kinda know what i am talking about that being said, I would love to see fed and klink get what they want but for the klink faction to get better isn't fair and that's what you all want. I would give my left ^^^ to get a ship that was just a little better than what we have, but we got a lesser ship with a gimmick, and that's what you get i believe so be ready for it. I also believe if you all do get what you wish for pvp FVK will be no more, because what you are asking for are better ships than the feds have.
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