Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 11
10-08-2010, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeves
The old ships are just a tough as new ones once fitted with new tech or did people forget the DS9 show "Homefront" were a old Lakota (NCC-42768) Excelsior-class refit. Toke on the Defiant and have would beat it if the Captain did hold back. You got it she held back on using the quantum torpedo the ship had. Go watch the show.
Uh no. Both ships were holding back. In a fight like that a smaller more mobile ship wins.

Old design new tech argument is dumb. The Excelsior had a long life and was able to be refit But why would you have the TOS connie here now when most if not all were refit to be the TMP Connie. The NX-01 as a refit T5 is stupid.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 12
10-08-2010, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Uh no. Both ships were holding back. In a fight like that a smaller more mobile ship wins.

Old design new tech argument is dumb. The Excelsior had a long life and was able to be refit But why would you have the TOS connie here now when most if not all were refit to be the TMP Connie. The NX-01 as a refit T5 is stupid.
Not to mention that there could be compatibility issues. Some hulls just aren't made to accept 25th-century technology. This would be especially true for the NX-class, who only started using the phaser technology (and true shields, too, I believe) towards the end of the series. It had phase cannons and polarized hull plating that served as its main defenses for most of its life. I seriously doubt that a 250-year old (or so) design can handle the stress of what we are using now. Even a Constitution-class would probably be pushing the boundaries of believability based on what was used then and what it being used now. At least we know that the Excelsior-class can equip this technology with relative ease (as shown in TNG and DS9).

Again, I also point to the fact that the Constitution and NX classes are both retired ships and have been for a long time. It's not like we're playing Battlestar Galactica where we can take a museum ship and have it fight as the main battleship in the middle of an intense war.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 13
10-08-2010, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Armstrong View Post
Not to mention that there could be compatibility issues. Some hulls just aren't made to accept 25th-century technology. This would be especially true for the NX-class, who only started using the phaser technology (and true shields, too, I believe) towards the end of the series. It had phase cannons and polarized hull plating that served as its main defenses for most of its life. I seriously doubt that a 250-year old (or so) design can handle the stress of what we are using now. Even a Constitution-class would probably be pushing the boundaries of believability based on what was used then and what it being used now. At least we know that the Excelsior-class can equip this technology with relative ease (as shown in TNG and DS9).

Again, I also point to the fact that the Constitution and NX classes are both retired ships and have been for a long time. It's not like we're playing Battlestar Galactica where we can take a museum ship and have it fight as the main battleship in the middle of an intense war.
Ultimately, it comes down to:

This is a game. A game that Cryptic wants to appeal to the widest possible range of fans. In order to draw in the ENT / TOS / TMP fans, they will bring in the NX Class, the TOS Connie and the TMP / TWOK Connie at an upper level, be it Tier 4 or Tier 5. They will do this because they know that:

1) Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships don't work well enough at the upper levels.

and

2) People spend the majority of their game life at the upper levels.

Really it's why all the ships should have T5 equivalents. Because it's a game and people should have some choices about the ships they fly, not be forced into a ship they don't like.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-08-2010, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Because it's a game and people should have some choices about the ships they fly, not be forced into a ship they don't like.
And so you're forcing everyone else into a non-consistent setting rather than settling for something everyone can agree on?

We're not talking about finding the lowest common denominator here. We already have that. It's about affecting everyone's gameplay experience by adding something for a small segment of the playerbase that doesn't quite belong there. Cryptic should know this as well.

As for the TOS-Connie: Is it actually official that it's going to be T5? I have yet to see any official statement about this.

Bottom line: The game was never meant to be about everything Star Trek, else it would not have a single solid era, with a storyline embedded firmly in the 25th century. I also dispute the claim that an NX or a TOS-Connie will draw in the fans of the respective shows. They're already here. And those who are not still won't be satisfied with just the ship when everything else around them feels "out of place".

You will always have someone who isn't satisfied with the selection he is presented. The only question is: Where do you draw the line?

Maybe that's just my opinion, but in games such as these, people should play with each other - and not retreat into their own little world because everyone has his or her own vision of how the game should look like.
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# 15
10-08-2010, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
As for the TOS-Connie: Is it actually official that it's going to be T5? I have yet to see any official statement about this.
While it's not 100% official (because it's not in testing yet) it is in the "In Development" category of the September 15th Engineering Report.

And since it specifically says "T5 TOS Connie" that would indicate to me that it is coming.

But we seem to be heading down the same path as the NX-01 debates, and that isn't what this thread was supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about giving us the option on the T5 TOS Connie to use the TWOK Enterprise skin, or creating a T5 TWOK Enterprise.

But as I stated before in this thread, I'd even be fine if the TOS Connie / TWOK Connie came to the C-Store in a T4 (bringing it on par with Galaxy-X) so it could still be a worthwhile ship at upper levels, but you wouldn't see them being 100% competitive with T5's which would then hopeful make the detractors a little more accepting.
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# 16 Read agin..
10-08-2010, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Actually the TOS version is already in the "In Development" list on the last Engineering Report.
That is the refit or moive version not the one form the 1966/7 TV show.
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# 17
10-08-2010, 07:29 PM
I just scanned the entire thread and - as I remembered - the ship's tier was not mentioned anywhere. All they say is "TOS Constitution Refit". Which in itself is a little contradictory, given that the Refit was not the TOS Connie. But I'm going to assume they mean "Refit" in the sense of the game, aka making it a higher tier. But what tier? That is yet to be announced.

If it should end up being a T5 ship, then of course there is no reason not to have the movie Constitution or the NX there as well, given that it won't make much of a difference.

And I apologize for the debate, but you have to see it is a tricky subject. As demonstrated in the infamous NX-thread, it's not just a few people who are for or against the implementation of such features - and naturally both parties should be able to voice their opinion wherever it is discussed, lest we may end up with a false impression. Now that this is done I shall let it rest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-08-2010, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeves
The old ships are just a tough as new ones once fitted with new tech or did people forget the DS9 show "Homefront" were a old Lakota (NCC-42768) Excelsior-class refit. Toke on the Defiant and have would beat it if the Captain did hold back. You got it she held back on using the quantum torpedo the ship had. Go watch the show.

Hello,

I just read this. Don't know if anyone else has responded. It should be noted that the Defiant was also pulling punches, with neither ship desiring to create massive casualties or destruction of the opposing ship.

The fact that a refit Cruiser was about evenly matched with an escort that was a third of its size says just about everything you need to know about this incident. I'm sure the Lakota can still act as a great explorer, but in the field of combat, it was past its prime and no longer suitable for the front lines. Even with the latest technology on tap, it was *just* able to hold its own against a much smaller vessel.
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Posts: 120
# 19
10-08-2010, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I just scanned the entire thread and - as I remembered - the ship's tier was not mentioned anywhere. All they say is "TOS Constitution Refit". Which in itself is a little contradictory, given that the Refit was not the TOS Connie. But I'm going to assume they mean "Refit" in the sense of the game, aka making it a higher tier. But what tier? That is yet to be announced.

If it should end up being a T5 ship, then of course there is no reason not to have the movie Constitution or the NX there as well, given that it won't make much of a difference.

And I apologize for the debate, but you have to see it is a tricky subject. As demonstrated in the infamous NX-thread, it's not just a few people who are for or against the implementation of such features - and naturally both parties should be able to voice their opinion wherever it is discussed, lest we may end up with a false impression. Now that this is done I shall let it rest.
You are correct, they don't say T5 specifically. For the life of me, I thought they did.

But, I think the reason I thought that is because they call it a TOS Connie Refit and it makes me think they will be producing a "Refit" akin to the Galaxy, Intrepid and Defiant Refits.

So it could easily be a T5, or they could make it a T4 like the Galaxy-X.

And like I said, T4 would be fine. Still makes it a versatile ship for end game PvE and such without upsetting end game PvP balance.

And there is no need to apologize for the debate. I have no problem with debate, as long as it stays civil and the debate is logical. And by everything I've seen Valias, your arguments on both issues (TOS Connie and NX) are well reasoned and you keep things civil. So again, no need to apologize for that.
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