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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-15-2010, 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
I hate math. Someone else can have that fun.
You don't love math. Look at those curves! It's beatiful.
When I find the time, I want to look into it.

I like designing game rules and systems. And you need math for that to make it work. I mean, you can make game rules without really thinking what the numbers will mean, but then you will only get a good system by accident. I am kinda worried that Cryptic isn't doing really the "number-crunching" do understand the implications of their system. I think the numbers in STO are all over the place and that they work when they work is mostly due to the fact that they tried it until it worked, without designing it to work.
I could be wrong. Figuring out the math they use is a step to prove or disprove it, and cna also point a way to "fix" the game balance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-15-2010, 04:17 PM
Have fun. I've had more than enough math for one lifetime. I do know the aux curve is linear like the weapons curve, and the other power curves, I believe.

I do think Cryptic is doing the numbers system with some definition, that is what the season 1.2 patch and the categories was all about. The problem of course is that so many science powers are stuffed into categories that make them underpowered because they aren't available often, or doubling up on them gives weak benefits.

Skills also provide some very poor benfits to some powers, and is actually another area I want to look into, but I believe the skill curve is also linear, just that when dealing with some powers with small magnitudes, a console that adds +18 is a waste of space. That may be where the math breaks down, and consoles need to vary significantly to provide more noticeable benefits that compare with other consoles. Did you know that a Sensor Probe console only adds about 0.3 seconds to viral matrix? I really want to use a console that gives me a fraction of a second. /sarcasm




At anyrate, I believe the information is all there now. So I'm done until someone find something to fix or clarify or insert more info into the posts. By all means give me more stuff to do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-18-2010, 04:03 PM
Something I don't believe was mentioned is that attack patterns and other effects that increase weapon damage also increase the damage on various science powers. Using tractor beam repulsors while under the effect of Attack Pattern Alpha, for instance, will increase the repulsor's damage significantly. The same is probably true of various hull resistance debuffs (attack pattern beta, attack pattern delta, and for science captains especially sensor scan). That's a bit harder to test though, as you can't just look at the tooltips.

Certain science powers, however, don't seem to deal damage the normal way: Charged Particle Burst and Tachyon beam aren't affected at all by attack patterns or hull resistance debuffs. They "drain shields", they don't "deal damage."

Powers affected by damage % increase:
Photonic Shockwave:
Tractor Beam:
Going from 15 to 20 dps has little effect, of course. Oddly, the tooltip display says the turn rate debuff is also increased, I do not know if this is a display bug or relevant if it actually happens.
Tractor Beam Repulsors:

Photonic Shockwave and Tractor Beam repulsors can also crit, I'm fairly certain.

Powers not affected by damage % increase:
Charged Particle Burst
Tachyon Beam

I haven't looked at gravity well or tyken's rift. I'm really, really curious how feedback pulse is affected, but that's hard to see without a controlled test in kerrat or something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14 Some more info
10-18-2010, 06:35 PM
Nice work foxrock.

However, i'd like to bring a little correction over a word widely used, who do not really apply that much. FRAGILE. According to many cryptic description, there are kind of fragility. VERY fragile and just fragile. VERY fragile is a power that will end as soon as any damage is dealt. Standard fragile is a power that CAN be ended up early if enough damage is dealt.

So in your jam sensor, you say that the power will end as soon as any damage is dealt. Which is not true. I'v been using this power a lot (one of my main in fact). If you absolutely put no skills points in skills that affect it, it is really fragile. Meaning that it will probably go off in the first blow you deal. Even more if it is a big blow like from a dual heavy cannons. But Even the rank 1, fully bossted with the 9 skills points on each of the 3 skills won't go off until the end of the duration. No matter how much damage is dealt. Not by a single ship at least. I never tried having a 12 fleet firing allat once at the same jammed target...

So if you are soloing, there is absolutely no benefits to have a higher rank if you have decent skill points.

On a different subject, I can bring some detailed info about scramble sensors. For each 5 points of aux power, the duration will last one second more. Rank one tops at 15 seconds however. And I think that rank two would top at 25 seconds. But i never tried it at 125 power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-18-2010, 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainfacer View Post
Something I don't believe was mentioned is that attack patterns and other effects that increase weapon damage also increase the damage on various science powers. Using tractor beam repulsors while under the effect of Attack Pattern Alpha, for instance, will increase the repulsor's damage significantly. The same is probably true of various hull resistance debuffs (attack pattern beta, attack pattern delta, and for science captains especially sensor scan). That's a bit harder to test though, as you can't just look at the tooltips.

Certain science powers, however, don't seem to deal damage the normal way: Charged Particle Burst and Tachyon beam aren't affected at all by attack patterns or hull resistance debuffs. They "drain shields", they don't "deal damage."

Powers affected by damage % increase:
Photonic Shockwave:
Tractor Beam:
Going from 15 to 20 dps has little effect, of course. Oddly, the tooltip display says the turn rate debuff is also increased, I do not know if this is a display bug or relevant if it actually happens.
Tractor Beam Repulsors:

Photonic Shockwave and Tractor Beam repulsors can also crit, I'm fairly certain.

Powers not affected by damage % increase:
Charged Particle Burst
Tachyon Beam

I haven't looked at gravity well or tyken's rift. I'm really, really curious how feedback pulse is affected, but that's hard to see without a controlled test in kerrat or something.
I don't think Attack Pattern Alpha (or Beta/Delta/Omega) has a direct correlation to damage done, and Weapon skills definitely has none at all, to science skills.

Beta and Delta would, due to the target attacking(-ed) you, would get a debuff, like sensor scan, which would increase damage being done to said target that is being done by PSW, TracB and TBR, TR, and GW. Since they all do kinetic damage. Feedback pulse would also change according to how much debuff is done to the target, (but a huge varaicnce due to incoming energy weapon fire), but that is energy weapon fire instead probibbly, and also I think has a 50% bleed through.

Now Crit rate, MAY affect these, but highly doubt it. But I do agree that these powers could crit, but since most Science powers take time to recharge. It be kinda hard to determine if they do crit, in any reasonable amount of time.

CPB and Tach B, don't do damage the normal way, cause it's a flat kill of the shields, no matter what resistance power there is. if it says it will kill 90 shields per pulse, its going to kill 90 shields, even if the person has RSP going and as long as no one is shooting it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
10-18-2010, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eeb3 View Post
I don't think Attack Pattern Alpha (or Beta/Delta/Omega) has a direct correlation to damage done, and Weapon skills definitely has none at all, to science skills.

Now Crit rate, MAY affect these, but highly doubt it. But I do agree that these powers could crit, but since most Science powers take time to recharge. It be kinda hard to determine if they do crit, in any reasonable amount of time.
No I can pretty much test that in 15 minutes ^_^ Also, instead of going of memory a log is probably much more useful. Being an unreasonable person flying a tactical officer in a science vessel, I could totally do this:

Just Tractor Beam Repulsor III
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1076 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1234 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1239 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1118 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1126 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1235 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1080 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1128 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1079 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1100 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1103 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1091 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1138 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1290 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1167 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1095 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Average damage: 1140
(After enough time, I managed to get a 1900 or so crit without attack pattern alpha up, indicating ~66% crit severity)

Attack Pattern Alpha + Tractor Beam Repulsor III
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1462 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1641 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1510 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 3502 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1435 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1539 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1526 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1696 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1646 Kinetic Damage to Bird-of-Prey.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 1702 Kinetic Damage to Mogai Escort.
Average damage: 1570
Crit Severity: ~125%

Tractor Beam Repulsors III + Attack Pattern Alpha + Fire at Will
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2082 (1476) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2053 (1456) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2111 (1497) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2203 (1562) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2296 (1628) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2423 (1718) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2172 (1540) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 4283 (3037) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Average Damage: 2190
Crit Severity: ~95%

The sudden x(y) damage report here seems to be an artifact of fire on my mark

Fire Disruptors! Fire at Will! Attack Pattern Beta!
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2014 (1428) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2299 (1490) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2499 (1620) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2302 (1492) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2434 (1577) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Your Tractor Beam Repulsor Blast III deals 2275 (1474) Kinetic Damage to D'deridex Battleship.
Average Damage: 2300
Disruptors and Attack Pattern Delta don't seem to add much. I didn't manage to check if disruptors proc'd or not. No crits managed to happen on this attack run.

I can't prove that the crit rate is affected, without doing this a lot more. But damn does that power crit. I'm disinclined to test Gravity Well/Shockwave etc. because of the time involved. I remember seeing photonic shockwave crit before, but one guy's memory isn't exactly reliable.

For the record, tooltip numbers:
Attack Pattern Alpha III: 57% damage, 3.8% crit chance, 38% crit severity
Fire on my Mark III: -47 all damage resistance
Tractor Beam Repulsors III: 1,174 kinetic damage (before any buffs applied)
Aux at 115 at all times
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-19-2010, 01:55 AM
Intresting... now it does make me wonder if torpedo skills (since they affect kinetic damage dealt) would make a deal, and (slightly) how much you have in the relavent Tractor/Emitters/Ops.

I wouldn't think that a Torpedo skill would affect kinetic damage of a science skill. But if Torpedo skills do affect sci-kinetic abilities... >.>

But the Disrupto Proc, Should, affect the repulsor blast if the two happen at the same time, since that debuff is applied to the hull. Now, it makes me wonder, would an engineering skill, like Warp Plasma, be effected by APA/D/B/O.

Personally, seems a little odd that a tactical ability is directly affecting a non-tactical ability.

Might be able to test shockwave, agiast a carrier that using alot of low-end fighters that you can blast in one attack. Though don't know if it would crit-roll for each of them indivually, or as a group, even though damage variance does occur per/ship basis. Thinking about it, it should do a crit roll indivually. But I've seen on the ground, with poloran weapons arc-assualt (more noticable) that the weapon debuff seems to occur en masse if multiple people are hit with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Okay I updated some descriptions based on feedback.

I do think it is implied that science benefits from any damage resist debuffs or damage buffs. That is how the game works when it debuffs *all* resists or buffs *all* damage. If something debuffs someone's kinetic resist then naturally any science powers that do kinetic damage will benefit. And if something buffs all your damage then naturally any of your powers that do damage will benefit. CPB and tachyon beam are special in this regard so I noted it in those places.

I'm also going to add an abbreviations line to the descriptions real quick, I hope that is also helpful to people.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-08-2010, 06:01 PM
Feedback pulse testing! Scroll to the bottom for conclusions.

Started at 125 aux with 18 Starship ops, 61 deflectors, and 112 deflector field. This means a standard deflector array with [def] and 4 +15 deflector field induction consoles.

Incoming damage was roughly about 700-800 base damage. The logs are incomplete as I suck at copy/paste, but the math looks pretty constant.

With FBP 1, it looked something like this:

Fifteen 2 deals 647 (916) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Beam Array - Fire at Will I.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 225 (520) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 688 (770) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Beam Array - Fire at Will I.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 189 (437) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 738 (826) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Beam Array - Fire at Will I.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 203 (469) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 109 (122) Plasma Damage to you with Automated Defense Turret.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 30 (70) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.

The base damage is in the paranthesis, so all we have to do is compare them to get the ratio of return damage. And with this we get around 57% returned.


With FBP 3...

Fifteen 2 deals 736 (823) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 337 (780) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 688 (769) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 315 (729) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 664 (743) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 304 (703) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 1581 (1769) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 723 (1675) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 710 (794) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 325 (752) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 653 (731) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 299 (692) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 666 (745) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 305 (706) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Your Auxiliary Power to the Structural Integrity Field I gives 4487 Hit Points to you.
Fifteen 2 deals 514 (728) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 297 (689) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.

Doing some math to figure out the return ratios, we get ~95%

Now with 62 aux and FBP 1...

Fifteen 2 deals 655 (733) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 115 (267) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 781 (874) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 138 (319) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 778 (871) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 137 (318) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 735 (822) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 130 (300) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 681 (762) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 120 (278) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 767 (858) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied deals 135 (313) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.

Return rate is ~36%.

Now 62 aux and FBP 3...

Fifteen 2 deals 681 (762) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 200 (463) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 771 (862) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 226 (524) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 721 (806) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 212 (490) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 708 (792) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 208 (482) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 677 (757) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 199 (460) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 659 (737) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 193 (448) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 719 (804) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 211 (489) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.
Fifteen 2 deals 695 (777) Antiproton Damage to you with Antiproton Array.
Captain, our hull is at 75%!
Your Feedback Pulse Applied III deals 204 (473) FeedbackPulse to Fifteen 2.

Return rate is ~61%


Now we also did some testing to see what it looked like if dropped every bit of deflector and deflector field enhancing gear. The first test got some very flukey results that actually showed a major increase in damage by going to a tachyon deflector and dropping all of the deflector field consoles I was using. But I could not reproduce that. Further tests trying to reproduce that fluke showed an expected loss in damage with less skill from consoles and deflector.


Conclusions:
I didn't want to do all kinds of tests and math and graphs to determine the curve, however from what I saw, I'd actually presume its an asymptotic curve so that you can approach the maximum return rate for FBP but you can't ever reach it. In FBP 3's case that appears to be about 100% like I believe was stated when these changes first went live.

So basically, the more skill and aux power you get, the closer your damage return will be to 100% when using FBP 3, but you'll never actually reach it. I believe FBP 1 is 60% and 2 is 80%.

And in other news, which I forgot to list, FBP 2 cannot be trained at a skill trainer. However you can buy common BOs with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-11-2010, 11:04 AM
Thanks Fox, your FBP findings have helped me a lot.

I know you didn't look too far into it, but do you happen to know at which point it's no longer with it to dump skills and points towards FBP?
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