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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-20-2010, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NemoSD
Klingon's are alpha strikers, science ships and fed cruisers are about sustained damage over time. Survive the alpha and the feds now have a higher chance of victory.
So you agree that klingons have a more consistant play style between ship classes (they're all capable of effective alpha-striking) than do fed ships (escorts alpha strike, cruisers and science ships have to outlast the alpha strike and build up to a kill over time)?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-20-2010, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
So you agree that klingons have a more consistant play style between ship classes (they're all capable of effective alpha-striking) than do fed ships (escorts alpha strike, cruisers and science ships have to outlast the alpha strike and build up to a kill over time)?
Wow. seriously work for Fox.

Do not confuse play-style with tactic. A klingon fleet is strongest while decloaked due to the damage buff they get decloaking. Thus it stands to reason a Klingon fleet will take advantage of this first burst of damage. That i once per fight, one target.

After that there is nothing similar. A negh'var will NOT engage the same way a raptor will.

As a warning, trying to put words in my mouth by shifting the context of my statements will get you on my ignore list faster then a gold spammer. I do not, and will not, start those stupid high school word games.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-20-2010, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
Now, let me begin by saying that I generaly think that the two factions are balanced on paper. Each side has advantages and disadvantages, and all and all I think that player skill is the deciding factor in most PvP matches.
Pfff yeah ****ing right. Fed has been so overbalanced to account for the whiners and crappy players that I'm tempted to wipe my ass with that 'paper' after my next chili dinner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
However I realised that there is one difference that may make klingon PuG teams more effectibve than their Federation counterpats. Since all klingon ships can mount dual cannons, and use CRF to apmlify that advantage whereas only select federation ships have that capability I think that focus fire from a klingon fleet of random composition has an advantage over focus fire from a federation fleet of random composition.
Really? Cannons are the determining factor? Whatever you're smoking, don't bogart that ****. Puff puff pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
For example, a fleet of 3 escorts, a science ship and a cruiser, will do way more damage than a fleet of three science ships, a cruiser and an escort, but a fleet of 3 BoP, a raptor and a battle cruiser is much more comperable with regards to damage potential to a fleet composed of 3 battle cruisers, a BoP, and a raptor.
http://img89.imageshack.us/f/screens...101815475.jpg/
Granted this was premade on premade...but we had four Intrepids vs a carrier, a cruiser, two BoPs, and a raptor. Who needs cannons anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
You will find that most klingon cruisers run beams... you are right you gain a nice bonus on the alpha. However what balances it out very well is the MUCH higher sustained dps from a fed beam ball. Teams that survive or mostly survive the alpha are in a very good position.
True dat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
Would you say that on average Klingon players do better at adapting to the conditions presented than federation players?
We don't need to adapt. We simply glance in the Feds' general direction and they kersplode into space dust. The only adapting we need to do is figure out how to fly sloppy drunk off Bloodwine without puking chunks all over teh Fednoobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
So you agree that klingons have a more consistant play style between ship classes (they're all capable of effective alpha-striking) than do fed ships (escorts alpha strike, cruisers and science ships have to outlast the alpha strike and build up to a kill over time)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NemoSD
Wow. seriously work for Fox.
Haha good one Nemo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-20-2010, 04:38 PM
i have been back a couple of days and still adapting to a few changes but on the whole it seem fairly balanced, well if you discount the players.

on a tac officer in an escort i am constantly out performing fed cruisers in the heal dept and of course damage. i wouldn't mind but often the difference is in the 100's thousands not such a few thousand. This is why you lose more, you do not do your job, you grp up sometimes but far to many think at that point job done and then continue to play solo. in the months i have been gone it seems very little has altered in the fed gamestyle
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-20-2010, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
i have been back a couple of days and still adapting to a few changes but on the whole it seem fairly balanced, well if you discount the players.

on a tac officer in an escort i am constantly out performing fed cruisers in the heal dept and of course damage. i wouldn't mind but often the difference is in the 100's thousands not such a few thousand. This is why you lose more, you do not do your job, you grp up sometimes but far to many think at that point job done and then continue to play solo. in the months i have been gone it seems very little has altered in the fed gamestyle
There is a bug with shield healing, meaning any friendly heal givern to you from another player will count towards your heal numbers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
10-20-2010, 08:20 PM
LOL at the people claiming klinks are OP in FvK balance. I am sick of seeing this argument, by people who have no actual PVP experience outside of PUGs. PuGs really mean nothing in terms of game balance.

At end game in fleet team vs fleet team battles, federation have the advantage in every way and win almost all of the time. And its not because they are better players or have more skill and tactics.

Their ships are stronger and have more hull HP and more shield HP, they perform better both solo and as a group.
They have more BO slots on some ships in a better layouts, designed for better roles.
They have a dedicated sci ships, klingons have none really.
They have the best dedicated healer ship in the star cruiser.

Mass beam boating with 6 to 8 beams is just as effective as four front rapid fire DHC, and you don't even have to aim on target. It also gives the advantage of everyone on your team will always have guns on the same target no matter where they are. While DHCs are good for bursting, even in a BOP its unlikely you are going to maintain your forward firing arc all the time in top premade vs premade, especially with all the sci spam / mines / tractors.

Tactical BO skills are far far less useful than SCI and ENG BO abilities, which fed ships in fleets run alot more of. And most klingons use at least a LTC tac for CRF 1 and 2 if not COM tac slot.
Battle cloak means nothing after the first strike, any time you spend in cloak your essentially fighting a man down.

Top federation cruisers and sci ships can tank like a motherf**ker, a good cruiser/sci can tank 2-3 people with ease and thats not even counting if his team heals him.

Federation ships can heal each other more easily, a BOP cant really effectively heal other people because its so fragile it needs its heal for itself.

Raptor is worthless in premade, it cant really heal itself or keep itself alive and it soaks up the teams heals, while its good for damage the drawbacks of not having enough eng / sci slots are too great. If i wanna muck around i fly my raptor sometimes, otherwise when i do premade pvp with my fleet i fly my BOP. Its a shame cause the raptor is fun to fly.

SCI spam is the downfall of klingons, (SNB is OP in my opinion, more OP than RSP), and stacked sensor scan just lets you rip through stuff.

All it takes is once SNB to be put on a BOP followed by mass focus beams from fed side, throw in a beam overload or CPB and your toast. And dont say sci team counters, because that 10 seconds or so that you dont have any buffs and are waiting for powers to come back is easily enough for any competent team to squish you.

Long cooldown on SNB means nothing because when you have multiple people using it, combined with the fact that just killing one BOP is enough to prevent a klingon team from even getting another kill till that player gets back to the fight. Especially when a fed team has two decent healers you need all 5 of your ships in the fight to even crack one target.

Going up against SCI spam, with 2-3 sci toons on the Fed side its a no contest in the federation favor.
And im starting to see it more with SCI/escorts and SCI/cruiser combos more than before.

SNB / PSW / CPB / SS when used on mass destroys stuff. Not to mention science fleet which puts everyone on the shield cap, to make the federation tanky ships even more tanky.

Now take out federation sci ships and sci toons, and just fight with escorts and cruisers, no sci ships or sci captains allowed on either side, then it is somewhat an even fight.

Because then it just comes down to damage and healing and who can coordinate better as a team. Even if the match does take 1 hour , its still more balanced then going up against fed sci spam.

The only real counter and way klingons can win at the moment is that everyone alpha strike one target and then all run off and cloak, wait 5 minutes for buffs to come back and rinse and repeat.

Sure it may give you victory but no Klingon wants to fight like this, and no federation wants to put up with it. It is just not fun.

Woah this post went for longer than i had expected, hopefully a dev reads this and does something about it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-20-2010, 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
LOL at the people claiming klinks are OP in FvK balance. I am sick of seeing this argument, by people who have no actual PVP experience outside of PUGs. PuGs really mean nothing in terms of game balance.

At end game in fleet team vs fleet team battles, federation have the advantage in every way and win almost all of the time.
Feds don't have the advantage in 'every' way, but I agree for the most part. Fed premade vs Klink premade with equally skilled players on both sides will highly favor the Federation.

I was so tired of hearing "Klinks are OP" that I rolled a Fed to see what all the fuss was about. Federation beats the **** out of Klingons. It's sad. Fed ships are ridonkulously powerful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-20-2010, 11:10 PM
Quote:
The only real counter and way klingons can win at the moment is that everyone alpha strike one target and then all run off and cloak, wait 5 minutes for buffs to come back and rinse and repeat.
This statement proves that the klinks can take down feds using what they are designed for hit and runs.

I agree the sci skills are nasty. I think a group of 5 Sci BoPs using Focused alpha strikes with 5 SNBs 5 Sensor scans can drop any ship in less time then the best fed ball can respond to then its all engines and Battle cloak.

5 Beam overloads on one ship means insta death. There are many ways for the klingons to take down the Fed ball. IT might be boring and the feds might hate it but it can work almost every time.

So I guess what Im saying is you can't remove the Klingon's best tactics then say the feds are the ones that always wins.

Personally I like pvp like Capture the flag because you can't just Fed ball and expect to win.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
10-21-2010, 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
Feds don't have the advantage in 'every' way, but I agree for the most part. Fed premade vs Klink premade with equally skilled players on both sides will highly favor the Federation.

I was so tired of hearing "Klinks are OP" that I rolled a Fed to see what all the fuss was about. Federation beats the **** out of Klingons. It's sad. Fed ships are ridonkulously powerful.

Hopefully this will get addressed with Klink refits * crosses fingers *

Although buffed carrier fighter spam was fun for a brief time, it is counterable by a coordinated Fed team...... as has already been demonstrated ^^

While it no longer amazes me, the general Fed perception of the Klink faction's 'OP' nature does continue to amuse me. That is, I guess, until the Feddies are finally all in Typhoon's and start whining for Deathstars to balance the BoP's uni stations
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-21-2010, 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NemoSD
Wow. seriously work for Fox.

Do not confuse play-style with tactic. A klingon fleet is strongest while decloaked due to the damage buff they get decloaking. Thus it stands to reason a Klingon fleet will take advantage of this first burst of damage. That i once per fight, one target.

After that there is nothing similar. A negh'var will NOT engage the same way a raptor will.

As a warning, trying to put words in my mouth by shifting the context of my statements will get you on my ignore list faster then a gold spammer. I do not, and will not, start those stupid high school word games.
I'm just asking questions, hoping to understand your position.

So you maintain that the klingon ships are different in play style. However you also claim that all klingon ships benefit from the alpha-strike tactic.

So far this seems consistant with my claims that it's easier for Klinons to learn their strategy than for the feds, who's best strategy is to survive the alpha-strike and whittle the klingions down over time (this being a reactive strategy requires better timing and coordination than the "decloak and fire in 3, 2, 1..." against which it is paired (if everyone blows all their heals on the first focus target than the whole fleet is vulnerable in the followup melee). This is compounded by not all federation ships having the tanking capability to survive a focus fire alpha on their own (since you can't garantee there will be a healer on your team in a PuG), whereas all klingon ships can mount high end burst damage weapons and fire at one target.

Remember I never claimed that effective strategys don't exist on both sides, or that klingons are more powerful. My position was that it's easier for a new player who doesn't know jack about the PvP metagame to throw some gear on a klingon ship and stumble into the klingon's winning strategy than it is for a fed to do the same.
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