Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
10-22-2010, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Well, even though it is not the exact same thing considering the scales involved but take a look at those two pictures and maybe you'll see a certain similarity in these two verhicles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r.000a5s6s.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9_cropped_.jpg


The first one weights 25 tons, the second 57.
The Panzer VI Tiger was exactly what you said: it was a scaled up version of the Panzer IV so they could put in a bigger gun and more armor.

Time would have been saved in case of a bigger BoP since it had already been established that the shape performed well at Warp (see my rant in the D5 about that) so with probably some minor changes like thicker wings (I'd love a properly rendered model to have slightly thicker ones) to compensate for the scaling issue (the mass increases by the 3rd power, the supporting strengh of the material only by the 2nd) and it would quite possibly work.
As for the wings: I don't see the large BoP as a ship that would perform in the atmosphere even remotely like the small model and I'd omit the machinery that moves the wings and the landing gear therefore saving even more space but the wings themselves have a lot of surface that would allow them to radiate the excess heat caused by operating the large guns and the probably equally massive power grid.

But in the end it ultimately comes down to the question whether someone wants this thing in or not and whether it will be a slightly larger version like the Pagh in TNG (around 250m) or even larger like in "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Defector", "Reunion", "Redemption" etc. (around 350-40m) or the version established in the DS9 TM which would be bigger than the Galaxy. But then several ships are given at the wrong size in that book, I find the K't'inga at 349 meters quite impressive too.
So I hope the ship comes one day, but I won't be hurt if it does not.
Dude, size won't need to matter in space...The ship will be able to do whatever it needs but putting more guns and other things on the hull on it will only feed others' envy of Klinks or feds or whatever. Nice arguement, but i dunno. On a side note...nice pic of the Panzerkampfwagen Ausf J...or I think I remember it as such...I would have hated putting in the zimmerit (think i misspelled it here...early in the AM here) coating on it myself though...lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
10-22-2010, 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I want the K't'inga too, as was indicated in the State of the Game August edition.
However if you want a big ship with a load of torps, I recomment you take the K'vort or Vor'cha over the K't'inga since the K't'inga is only 228 meters long and has a smaller internal volume than the Miranda.
Well, the K'vort is canonically as big as the B'rel, which we have and get (calendar). The Vor'cha we have and get (calendar) as well. K'tinga we have, too - but I think the D7 could simply be added as an alternate skin to the existing cruiser. I'm not a big fan of seeing clearly outdated ships performing just as good or even better than newer vessels, and whilst one could "explain away" the Refit-B'rel as another subclass of BoP, the D7 design is just too old for Tier 5. It was clearly succeeded by the Vor'Cha, after all. But as an alternate skin, sure!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
10-22-2010, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Well, the K'vort is canonically as big as the B'rel, which we have and get (calendar). The Vor'cha we have and get (calendar) as well. K'tinga we have, too - but I think the D7 could simply be added as an alternate skin to the existing cruiser. I'm not a big fan of seeing clearly outdated ships performing just as good or even better than newer vessels, and whilst one could "explain away" the Refit-B'rel as another subclass of BoP, the D7 design is just too old for Tier 5. It was clearly succeeded by the Vor'Cha, after all. But as an alternate skin, sure!
Amen for that...why don't you pop into the STO discussion and give them a piece of your mind eh?...lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
10-22-2010, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Well, the K'vort is canonically as big as the B'rel, which we have and get (calendar). The Vor'cha we have and get (calendar) as well. K'tinga we have, too - but I think the D7 could simply be added as an alternate skin to the existing cruiser. I'm not a big fan of seeing clearly outdated ships performing just as good or even better than newer vessels, and whilst one could "explain away" the Refit-B'rel as another subclass of BoP, the D7 design is just too old for Tier 5. It was clearly succeeded by the Vor'Cha, after all. But as an alternate skin, sure!
Canonically speaking the B'rel is a large BoP (TNG:"Rascals"), none of the small ones was ever called that way except in the Encyclopedia, which was appearently used as a basis.
My personal guess, ignoring the Encyclopedia this time, is that the B'rel we saw in "Rascals" is a precursor class to the K'vort.
Based on the dialogue in that episode the Ferengy practically got their hands on these ships from a junkyard.
So the K'vort would be newer incarnation, similar to the D7/K't'inga.
Of course there is no visual difference between the two ships (it was actually reused footage from previous episodes) due to our old friend the budget.

At Tier 5 I'd love the K't'inga to be something different than a typical cruiser.
It should actually be a hybrid between the cruisers we have now and a Raptor instead.
Decent maneuverability decent hitpoints, but in neither category a typical Battlecruiser or a Raptor.
I guess we'll never get such a ship but that's the way I think a T5 K't'inga would work.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 25
10-22-2010, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleTerribleRomulan
Dude, size won't need to matter in space...The ship will be able to do whatever it needs but putting more guns and other things on the hull on it will only feed others' envy of Klinks or feds or whatever. Nice arguement, but i dunno. On a side note...nice pic of the Panzerkampfwagen Ausf J...or I think I remember it as such...I would have hated putting in the zimmerit (think i misspelled it here...early in the AM here) coating on it myself though...lol.
Size would still be an issue, even though you wouldn't have issues like recoil that require the vehicle to have a certain size to be a stable firing platform etc.
However if you try to fire a large energy weapon you need the energy to do it: a reactor big enough.
Then you need to get the energy to the gun which means a large enough energy grid with large enough condiuts that don't burn out.
Those would need to be insulated and cooled.
Then you need to build the ship around the reactor, that grid and the insulation, give the whole thing protection proportional to the tactical importance and economic toll of the weaponry, which will require an even bigger reactor if you want to employ a decent shield grid to protect the whole thing.
Then you need to get it moving which means large enough impulse and warp engines and voilą the ship is 350 meters long so it can carry a pair of guns of which each is a large as a K't'inga's nacelle.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2...ktingacomp.jpg

That's just the short version I can think of at this hour, I hope it gets my reasoning across why I wouldn't simply slap this thing under a K't'inga nonetheless.
Oh and I'd like to see the face of a Fed captain who sees a K't'inga that has four of those diruptor guns sticking out its hull nonetheless, just for the fun.
But I bet if they did that in STO the flaming would get atomic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
10-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Canonically speaking the B'rel is a large BoP (TNG:"Rascals"), none of the small ones was ever called that way except in the Encyclopedia, which was appearently used as a basis.
Yep, that's the problem. Somehow, soft canon and the fanbase twisted the B'rel into being a small BoP and the K'vort into being a cruiser-sized one, which makes no sense and goes against what we see on-screen. I'm happy that this isn't the case in STO (and that STO has established the BoP-term as a category of "small raiders", similar to cruisers and carriers), as I've never liked the idea of BoPs with a torpedo launcher as large as a Galaxy nacelle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2...ktingacomp.jpg
That's just the short version I can think of at this hour, I hope it gets my reasoning across why I wouldn't simply slap this thing under a K't'inga nonetheless.
Actually ... seeing a "Bird of Prey" being 1 1/2 times the size of a Battlecruiser only makes me feel even stronger against the idea of acknowledging such a mutation.

Damn. The navigation light alone must be 10 meters high.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
10-22-2010, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Yep, that's the problem. Somehow, soft canon and the fanbase twisted the B'rel into being a small BoP and the K'vort into being a cruiser-sized one, which makes no sense and goes against what we see on-screen. I'm happy that this isn't the case in STO (and that STO has established the BoP-term as a category of "small raiders", similar to cruisers and carriers), as I've never liked the idea of BoPs with a torpedo launcher as large as a Galaxy nacelle.

Actually ... seeing a "Bird of Prey" being 1 1/2 times the size of a Battlecruiser only makes me feel even stronger against the idea of acknowledging such a mutation.

Damn. The navigation light alone must be 10 meters high.
However the K'vort was called a cruiser so that's someting that was not twisted into this, that's the canon part.
Oh and the funny thing is that the torpedo launcher on a large BoP would be about as large as the K't'inga's since the torpedo launcher on a K't'inga was always a bit large compared to the Federation mdels' or the BoP's.
Oh and that's not a navigation light that that's a disruptor turret :p at least when you compare the size of it with the turrets on the K't'inga.
Truth is I simply took the two images from Ex-Astris and scaled the K't'inga but I did not change the BoP, which means the image shows the wings-down version which is not correct for a large BoP and makes the ship look "higher" and therfore even more massive than it should.
It was actually meant to show why I wouldn't put that gun under a K't'inga but would build a ship around the gun.
Even in space they must be in certain proportions to each other or it won't work.
And as I said, I believe if they built a large BoP it would not be a 1:1 replication of the small ship simply scaled up, there would be differences, both on the outside and the inside.
Otherwise it would truely make no sense.
Oh and the scale comparison between the large BoP and the Galaxy would not be that different from the large BoP vs K't'inga comparison just that the BoP would be small compared to the Galaxy.
So the BoP wouldn't shhot Galaxy-nacelle-torpedoes even though I'd like to see the Damage Per Volley on those for sure.

*EDIT*
As for mutants:
take a look at THAT rabbit, now that's a supersize-mutant!
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/giant-rabbit.shtml
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
10-22-2010, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
However the K'vort was called a cruiser so that's someting that was not twisted into this, that's the canon part.
I know, and that's the part that simply makes no sense. Whereas making the B'rel small is the part that's not canon (but I like it either way, just because it's a cool name ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Oh and the funny thing is that the torpedo launcher on a large BoP would be about as large as the K't'inga's since the torpedo launcher on a K't'inga was always a bit large compared to the Federation mdels' or the BoP's.
Then again, we don't actually see the launcher itself - only a weapon module that might include the launcher. Keep in mind that the K'tingas in DS9 did not only fire torpedoes out of this hole, but also beam weapons. Maybe this hole simply holds a "weapon pod" that consists of at least one launcher as well as potentially several cannons and/or beam emitters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
And as I said, I believe if they built a large BoP it would not be a 1:1 replication of the small ship simply scaled up, there would be differences, both on the outside and the inside.
I see where you're coming from, but I still don't like it - it's just that I have grown used to the idea of the Bird of Prey being a ship category of its own ("KDF frigate"?), and that's what STO does, too. A ship cannot be a BoP and a cruiser at the same time.

Plus, I really think the idea of having several ships with the same shape but massively different sized is just bad. We all know that the BoP's in TNG were scaled up just to look more threatening to the 1701-D.

But yeah ... matter of taste.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
10-22-2010, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Size would still be an issue, even though you wouldn't have issues like recoil that require the vehicle to have a certain size to be a stable firing platform etc.
However if you try to fire a large energy weapon you need the energy to do it: a reactor big enough.
Then you need to get the energy to the gun which means a large enough energy grid with large enough condiuts that don't burn out.
Those would need to be insulated and cooled.
Then you need to build the ship around the reactor, that grid and the insulation, give the whole thing protection proportional to the tactical importance and economic toll of the weaponry, which will require an even bigger reactor if you want to employ a decent shield grid to protect the whole thing.
Then you need to get it moving which means large enough impulse and warp engines and voilą the ship is 350 meters long so it can carry a pair of guns of which each is a large as a K't'inga's nacelle.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2...ktingacomp.jpg

That's just the short version I can think of at this hour, I hope it gets my reasoning across why I wouldn't simply slap this thing under a K't'inga nonetheless.
Oh and I'd like to see the face of a Fed captain who sees a K't'inga that has four of those diruptor guns sticking out its hull nonetheless, just for the fun.
But I bet if they did that in STO the flaming would get atomic.
That would be something that would make roll on the floor laughin...or so I believe..
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