Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
10-25-2010, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RachelGarrett View Post
Hopefully they won't. You could use this for a serious economy exploit.

Regards,
Rachel
Exploit? Uh... every other space video game that involves long travels and merchants base their economy off of exactly what you're calling an exploit. Not just space games either, lots of video games use this as a feature, and a way to make money.

Examples (MMOs/Space):
EVE Online - Buy low at one station, sell high at another.
SWG - Buy low, sell high.
(Non-MMO/Non-Space):
Fable (and the lost chapters): Buying sacks of goods, and crates of goods in one town to sell in another.

It's far from an exploit. Real world economics rely on supply and demand and the concept of buying low, and selling high. Why should a video game be any different? The Federation may be a bunch of bunny-huggers who do not place emphasis on personal possessions and profit, but what about the rest of the Universe, eh?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
10-25-2010, 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by machocyclone View Post
If you are buying from a merchant and then selling to another for 60% value rather than 50% value....how are you making a profit.

Buy Item A from Merchant A for 100 EC
Sell Item A to Merchant B (that buys at 60%) for 60 EC
Equals at 40 EC loss for you!!!

Now if you want to buy items in one place and then take them to Defari and sell them for 60% value...then that is on you and you are dumb cause you are lossing EC.

For you to make a profit:
Buy Item A From Merchant A for 100 EC
Sell Item A to Merchant B for 160 EC
That is a profit of 60 EC and means that Merchant B bought item for 160% of value.

I personnally have not seen anywhere (execpt Exchange) where you can sell an item for 160% value.

Now if the item was a drop..then it really wouldn't matter if you sold it for 60% or 50% cause either way you are making a profit.
Because you could buy things from Sierra Starbase for lower-than-normal prices, but the item still has the same base value associated with it, so it would still sell at normal price to vendors. You could buy industrial coils at Sierra and sell at Deferi Outpost 3 for 80 EC profit each. Full inventory would net people around 580k EC per run. Nevermind that buying low and selling high is the basis of every in-game and real-world economy, and nevermind that people are just crying 'exploit' because they didn't know about it until after the patch so they're upset that they didn't make a ton of money as a freight hauler when they could have.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
10-25-2010, 07:20 PM
Well... the real deal was purchasing industrial replicators for 400 and selling them for 480. this was a 20% profit that made it an actually profitable enterprise. Depending on the size of your Cargo Hold you could turn a good profit for making a run.

Who could fault ANY player from making a cargo run for profit? Perhaps Starfleet frowns on it for using "Fed property" for personal gain. Perhaps Starfleet encourages commerce and trade in troubled areas so that "normal" traders will return inspite of the conflict.

There are many reasons for price fluctuations and hostile/depressed markets are ripe for profiteering. Having a "fixed" economy only hurts an open market buy placing unnecessary restrictions on free trade and discourages any kind of trading altogether.

Price fixing sounds to much like "Socialism" or "Communism" or worse yet "State Capitalism".

To me Star Trek embraced the concepts of free trade and supply and demand & the ability of one man to decide for himself what his ambitions and goals are.

I personally find it appalling that "someone" wants to hunt down and punish anyone engaged in "free trade".

Sounds like a Union strong-arm tactic. Maybe if Cryptic took a "cut" of the profits it considers excessive by implementing an EC tax based on credit intake only... then we would fix those evil people who make profit for themselves and give the EC to the needy players that don't have the time to actually play the game.

This, of course, is the only sensible way to deal with excessive profiteering by people who are so greedy that they will list ANY item for more then 1 million EC.

There is NO place in our Evolved Society for free trade or profit don'tcha know?

So, We will be implementing a form that all players must fill out for all characters listing all EC brought in during each month. A percentage of this number will be deducted automatically from all character accounts each month based on the level of the player and how many hours of game time is played each month. If there are insufficient funds for the "Fee" then all access to vendors will be revoked until such "Fees" are paid in full with an interest penalty.

This will provide the proper "Currency Sink" that is needed to properly regulate our economy and also help out "needy" players with a monthly "Benefit" that can be spent "Tax Free" at any vendor or the exchange.

Note that failure to complete any and all Required Forms or any intentional or un-intentional errors will be punishable by fines, play restrictions or confiscation of items or ships as deemed adequate by the appointed "moderator" whose decisions are final and not subject to appeal.

This is our future so we might as well get used to it... Do you find this Good, Bad, Offensive or Desirable?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
10-25-2010, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopwith_Snipe
Yes it is. The ability to make currency hand over fist in an economy with limited resources leads to runaway inflation at the exchange. In order to combat inflation the devs can do a few things. Add influence sinks like a fee for using the exchange, standardize the prices at which things get bought by NPC stores, add currency sinks like mini games, tailor fees, etc that takes some of the currency out of the economy.
You don't use the exchange very much, do you? The prices are already absurd as it is. All the buy-low-sell-high thing did was make some of the harder to obtain items available for those willing to drop everything and run freight for HOURS. Less than a million EC per run, and since best profit was from Sierra to Deferi the shortest route was Alpha Centauri->Sirius->Eta Eridana->Orellius, it takes just as long to use that method to buy one of the multi-million EC items on the exchange as it would to PVP or farm other items to sell for the EC.

This FEATURE that they're calling a bug should be put back in. It gives non-farmers and non-PVP'ers another avenue to generate revenue in about the same timetable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
10-25-2010, 07:36 PM
So if we should restrict the ability to buy stuff at low prices and sell them at higher prices because this is an exploit can I assume that the developers will soon make it impossible to buy items on the Exchange and then re-list them, since this is incredibly common there and the end result is the same. So are items now going to be flagged so that they can only be listed on the Exchange once and only once?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
10-25-2010, 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
Despite what the patch note says - this was a serious bug and the prices being offered on Outpost 3 were not intended. The store is now fixed and set to the standard price structure.
Oh well. I thought the 60% prices were to drive traffic to the new "featured" zone. I was hoping to find a 60% price store on Drozana Station soon. Guess I was dreaming... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
10-25-2010, 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praesius View Post
Because you could buy things from Sierra Starbase for lower-than-normal prices, but the item still has the same base value associated with it, so it would still sell at normal price to vendors. You could buy industrial coils at Sierra and sell at Deferi Outpost 3 for 80 EC profit each. Full inventory would net people around 580k EC per run. Nevermind that buying low and selling high is the basis of every in-game and real-world economy, and nevermind that people are just crying 'exploit' because they didn't know about it until after the patch so they're upset that they didn't make a ton of money as a freight hauler when they could have.
Ah ok. I really didn't notice that cause I dont buy the things like that (i.e industrial cells, communication equipment, etc) unless I need them for a mission. The ones I get from drops, I just sell the next trip to a vendor.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
10-25-2010, 10:03 PM
NOOOOO! eh, so.... I'm losing my extra 10%? That's bad.
But now I don't have to haul my junk to the Deferi anymore? That's good.
I'm torn.

Cryptic just make all non-Ferengi vendors buy stuff for 50%. This varying of prices is silly. (Any player that sells to a Ferengi deserves to get cheated.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
10-26-2010, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynKnight View Post
Really? I mean, really? Dude, why is it every single post of yours I read boils down to one major thing, you wanting the devs to punish someone for doing something in the game you don't agree with.

It's one thing to ask for fixes to bugs or exploits that you feel hurt the game experience, that's commendable no matter what our differing opinion, but you keep asking that people get punished. People that are only trying to have fun. It's really really mean spirited man. That's some bad karma and juju.
It's one thing to stumble across a bug which benefits you unexpectedly. It's quite another to repeat the process to the point where you, and I quote, "made about 5 million EC off this. Others I spoke to made even more.". Please explain to all of us at what point, exactly, should common sense kick in and tell you that maybe, just maybe, you're involved in abusing an economy wrecking money exploit? Does it happen at 500,000 energy credits? One million EC? FIVE million?

Yes, people who abuse bugs and exploits deserve to be punished, because clearly common sense fails them and it falls upon developers to make it clear that exploiting in their game won't be tolerated. And it's important for them to do so because otherwise more and more players who siting on the edge of the morality fence start to believe in that it's safe to exploit bugs because the GMs "never took action against people who exploited the (insert bug of the month here)".

This isn't EvE online, and never has been. Anyone who suggests it's "normal" or "understandable" that someone in STO could make nearly half a million energy credits for moving their character from one sector to the next in 5-10 minutes time is being ridiculous - and frankly, insulting everyone's intelligence. What other intended mechanic has ever worked that way? Where else in this game can you make that kind of money that quickly, that easily, and with zero risk? People who abused this bug to earn millions of credits knew *exactly* what they were involved in: an exploit. And, yes, they should be dealt with. Abusing bugs is against the terms of service, which we all agree to when we play this game. Or were people forgetting that while they were busy counting their "earnings"?

It's not "mean spirited" to want exploiters to be dealt with. It's smart and necessary if you at all value the long-term health of this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
10-26-2010, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by machocyclone View Post
If you are buying from a merchant and then selling to another for 60% value rather than 50% value....how are you making a profit.

Buy Item A from Merchant A for 100 EC
Sell Item A to Merchant B (that buys at 60%) for 60 EC
Equals at 40 EC loss for you!!!

Now if you want to buy items in one place and then take them to Defari and sell them for 60% value...then that is on you and you are dumb cause you are lossing EC.

For you to make a profit:
Buy Item A From Merchant A for 100 EC
Sell Item A to Merchant B for 160 EC
That is a profit of 60 EC and means that Merchant B bought item for 160% of value.

I personnally have not seen anywhere (execpt Exchange) where you can sell an item for 160% value.

Now if the item was a drop..then it really wouldn't matter if you sold it for 60% or 50% cause either way you are making a profit.
The vast majority of items in the game have this price structure and of course you are right even at a 60% of base price you would be losing EC. But there are a few commodity items where you can buy at 100 and sell to the regular 50% vendors at 100 - or in the case of the pre-patch Deferi at 120 - a 20% profit. (Acutally the worst offender was a stackable item that could be bought at 400 and sold at 480). While this mechanic can work in games that are designed for it (Elite or EVE for example) - this game was not designed that way.

But I would suggest that the bug was with the items with the odd pricing structure, not that Deferi would pay 60%. If they were fixed there would be no problem - just a bonus for people who were prepared to travel to sell their loot.
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