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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And lastly, of course it's probably also a bit of wishful thinking. I maintain that Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration (emphasized by its political issues with the Defiant), hence my general stance regarding Starfleet battleships or carriers - but naturally there'll always be people who just think this stuff is "cool", and so we end up with vastly different interpretations of canon. Matter of taste/opinion.
I am fiercly against Federaqtion Battleships and Carriers.
The Federation and Starfleet should never ever build warships (the Defiant was a big mistake and should never be introduced), it should be better than that.
But i think many players just don't care about Federation/Starfleet philosophy.
I even think that the Federation should concentrate on perfecting Star Cuiser classes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
The Sovereign is certainly stronger than its predecessors - but no more than the 1701-D was to its predecessors. It's an ongoing upgrade without a change of focus, at least imo.
110% agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And your English is perfect, don't worry.
Oh, thank you very much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-24-2010, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
I am fiercly against Federaqtion Battleships and Carriers.
The Federation and Starfleet should never ever build warships (the Defiant was a big mistake and should never be introduced), it should be better than that.
But i think many players just don't care about Federation/Starfleet philosophy.
I even think that the Federation should concentrate on perfecting Star Cuiser classes.


.[/color][/font]
I know many people have differing opinions on what would be considered appropriate for A "peace loving" culture, such as the Federation, But I do disagree with the sentiment that Star fleet should never build war ships. I would like to take you through my reasoning why, and apply it to a stand point of both learning from history, and what a real Stellar empire, even a peace loving one would do.

The primary goal of any society is survival, if you lack the power to guarantee your continued existence, then your culture is doomed form the beginning, this is doubly true for any peaceful, culture. If you are not at least as strong if not stronger then your enemies, or those who wish you harm, then you can never hope to beat them and prevail. Now, I always thought of the Federation, while militarily more peaceful, an entity that was trying to conquer the galaxy, not through war, but through economics. They seek co-existence with all life, becasue they feel all life has a right to live, but co-existence requires might to reinforce. The Federation is, and will always seek a peaceful end to any hostilities, as any fight, no matter how justified, or necessary comes at a high price.

However, and I love who star fleet go around this, you still need a military might. A police force of sorts for trouble spots, but more importantly, a competent "stick". "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" is by far one of greatest quotes and sums up the idea of any peaceful society. Don't start fights, don't cause trouble, be kind and look for ways to make both sides happy, but always be ready to back up your side with force in order to prevent unnecessary conflict, and more importantly, to safe guard your way of life. The federation found a nice comprise to having a dedicated war fleet, and a dedicated peace core, and that is to combine the two into one. A powerful warship with peaceful exploration also in mind is brilliant.

Not only are your ships capable of defending them selves, but also second as a competent war ship in times of need, with out having to force into production a war ship after the call of conflict and suffer from a lack of experienced crew. A battle ship is a heavier class of war ship, just as cruiser is above frigates and escorts. Star fleet has always had it share of large war capable vessels, including several variations on battle ships and dreadnoughts. There is a canon version of a constitution styled (three engined) dreadnought in the old technical manuals that document the Federation and Star fleet from the original shows and a behinds the look at what the show was about form the creators.

Even the U.S. outside of times of war maintains a strong military might. We politically are not conquerors, though some of our opposition would like to convince us of that, but we do realize that we need to stay ahead of any threat other wise we sub come to them. If any one wants to call the federation a Hippocrates, simply becasue they have war capable ships, they are already looking to challenge them, but could use other examples like the wars it had with the dominion, the Borg, or even the Klingons back in their time, regardless of the truth. (And a funny thing was, the Klingon and federation peace was something neither side really wanted [watch the 6th movie]) but The federation can also just simply justify it in one of two ways.

1) All are ships are war capable becasue any empire that wishes to survive in a hostile environment where even one entity wishes to subjugate and destroy another poses a threat to the innocent lives of a peaceful society, but those entities are also not likely to give us the same chance we would them if our might happens to be weaker then theirs. (again the speak softly but carry a big stick)

2) Most of our ships are designed to perform secondary, peaceful roles of exploration and diplomacy, while being able to defend them selves. However, any purely military vessel (this is in reference to the defiant mostly) is used to safe guard and patrol our own boarder and are a necessary evil, to safe guard our way of life. We may have pure warships, but they are not deployed on mission of conquest but rather intelligence and in cases of unavoidable conflict as a fighting force.

Any stellar entity understands the value of a pure military force, as each entity has one, but it's less of you having them and more of how you use them that will define how other entities will look at you. If you don't use your "defiants", battleships, and carriers to expand your border or use them to bully others, that will show any others that you are honorable, and yet they also know you can defend them and their interest if they did become allied with you.

I know I ranted pretty long here, but after playing many different "space Empire" Sim games and studying empires as a whole, I do have a bit of experience with trying to emulate a peaceful empire. Treaties are hard to forge, and if you are to be one of the strongest and survive, you need both the capabilities to secure victory in case of war and offer assistance to those you want as allies. I have never once won a game, even of a race to peace, with out fighting, and ultimately, their have been a few empires that I had to crush just to maintain peace with others. Sad but true.

I admire the Federation and it's principles, however I also know that the vision a lot of people have about it is not entirely accurate, and sometimes seems weak, becasue other have made it seem like they give in to others demands and not get involved when they should have. (Good example is several instances in the Path to 2409) Of course this is how I see the Federation. Strong capable, wise, and while favoring peaceful resolution, will fight and defend them selves if they are forced to.

After all, Name a time where a captain hasn't fired back when attacked simply becasue they didn't get direct orders from command to defend them selves.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-24-2010, 07:03 PM
I would think that even if Starfleet didn't build battleships, an idea I don't agree with, some of the alien members of the UFP would have battleships in their personal armadas that could be recruited into Starfleet service when the need arose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-24-2010, 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devetaki View Post
Gentlemen (Devs),

I first would like to say that I appreciate the work the developers have done to improve the quality of the game. I have patiently awaited each and every new element you have introduced to the game, but with that said (and heartfelt), I do have to bring an issue I'd like to bring to your attention which I feel is a grave error on your part.

Bringing the Excelior class ship to the game was a truly necessary addition, but with it's implementation you have knocked the teeth out of the Sovereign class Battleship. Yes, I know you have the Sovereign classified as an Assault Cruiser, but the Sovereign class is a battleship, and should carry more bite than the Excelsior (even the T5 retrofit).

Thus I feel it's time for a refit of the Sovereign, so it can return to it's rightful status as a Command Battleship. Remember, the Sovereign class is the flagship of the Federation, it should be more tactical than the Excelsior, if for no other reason than it's was christened many years after the Excelsior.

My suggestion would be to refit the Sovereign and give similar consoles and bridge officer stations to what the T5 Excelsior possesses, and give it an additional front weapon slot that can equip a single Dual Heavy Cannon for it to have more of its bite. It should also have a stronger hull than the T5 Excelsior, and what would be really cool is to actually have the Dual Heavy Cannons in the graphics of the ship model. It should have the same customization features as the current Sovereign, but also the extra cannons which would not be made available until the higher rank levels (Fleet Admiral perhaps). I wouldn't mind if you decided to add it as a C-store item, as long as it had the Dual Heavy Cannons as an option in the fifth weapon slot.

The Sovereign has many fans, probably as many or more than the Galaxy class, and you have really catered to the Galaxy's fan base. So please, give us fans of the Sovereign something to be proud to fly and fight in. Due to the release of the T5 Excelsior I have been forced to park my Sovereign for the additional tactical features in the Excelsior. Though it is a very nice ship to fly at the Commander and Captain levels (I refuse to fly the Galaxy due to its turn rate), with the current structure of the cruiser class, I end up flying the Excelsior for all the ranks from Commander up to Vice Admiral.

Thank you for your time in making this less painful to read.
We aren't to T6 yet, and we won't be for quite some time I'm sure. That's a problem because what you suggest is well beyond a T5 ship. I do believe that the Sovereign needs an update, especially after the Negh'var has had it's hull boosted to match the Federation ships, but what you suggested couldn't possibly be implemented as it isn't even remotely balanced.

Oh, and cannons have no place on a Sovereign.

PS.

Happy hits wall for 108 Damage.
Critical Hit!
Wall is defeated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Actually, the Sovereign-class is canonically a "Type 2 Explorer".

Which is why she was put on diplomatic missions instead of fighting in the Dominion War.

This is Starfleet. Not the Terran Empire.
"Type 2 Explorer" is Federation code for Battleship, much like "Escort" is code for Destroyer. Starfleet may use sissy names, but they don't build sissy ships. Never have.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-24-2010, 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
I know many people have differing opinions on what would be considered appropriate for A "peace loving" culture, such as the Federation, But I do disagree with the sentiment that Star fleet should never build war ships. I would like to take you through my reasoning why, and apply it to a stand point of both learning from history, and what a real Stellar empire, even a peace loving one would do.

The primary goal of any society is survival, if you lack the power to guarantee your continued existence, then your culture is doomed form the beginning, this is doubly true for any peaceful, culture. If you are not at least as strong if not stronger then your enemies, or those who wish you harm, then you can never hope to beat them and prevail. Now, I always thought of the Federation, while militarily more peaceful, an entity that was trying to conquer the galaxy, not through war, but through economics. They seek co-existence with all life, becasue they feel all life has a right to live, but co-existence requires might to reinforce. The Federation is, and will always seek a peaceful end to any hostilities, as any fight, no matter how justified, or necessary comes at a high price.

However, and I love who star fleet go around this, you still need a military might. A police force of sorts for trouble spots, but more importantly, a competent "stick". "Speak softly, but carry a big stick" is by far one of greatest quotes and sums up the idea of any peaceful society. Don't start fights, don't cause trouble, be kind and look for ways to make both sides happy, but always be ready to back up your side with force in order to prevent unnecessary conflict, and more importantly, to safe guard your way of life. The federation found a nice comprise to having a dedicated war fleet, and a dedicated peace core, and that is to combine the two into one. A powerful warship with peaceful exploration also in mind is brilliant.

Not only are your ships capable of defending them selves, but also second as a competent war ship in times of need, with out having to force into production a war ship after the call of conflict and suffer from a lack of experienced crew. A battle ship is a heavier class of war ship, just as cruiser is above frigates and escorts. Star fleet has always had it share of large war capable vessels, including several variations on battle ships and dreadnoughts. There is a canon version of a constitution styled (three engined) dreadnought in the old technical manuals that document the Federation and Star fleet from the original shows and a behinds the look at what the show was about form the creators.

I totally agree with you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
Any stellar entity understands the value of a pure military force, as each entity has one, but it's less of you having them and more of how you use them that will define how other entities will look at you. If you don't use your "defiants", battleships, and carriers to expand your border or use them to bully others, that will show any others that you are honorable, and yet they also know you can defend them and their interest if they did become allied with you.

I know I ranted pretty long here, but after playing many different "space Empire" Sim games and studying empires as a whole, I do have a bit of experience with trying to emulate a peaceful empire. Treaties are hard to forge, and if you are to be one of the strongest and survive, you need both the capabilities to secure victory in case of war and offer assistance to those you want as allies. I have never once won a game, even of a race to peace, with out fighting, and ultimately, their have been a few empires that I had to crush just to maintain peace with others. Sad but true.

You can't compare the Star Trek universe with a generic Sci-Fi game universe.
The Federation (humaity) has evolved into .... well it has never explained very well in the shows. But as long as they insist that they did, we should belive them.

I have myself quite a bit experience with those games and the only thing i can say is that the Trek Universe somehow must work in a different way.
Its like comparing apple with oranges, it won't work.

Realism in a Show/Game goes only that far as much as the author or game designer allows.
So the question is, does the game you are talking about, allow to be played in a "federation" way, in the first place?
Most do not. So as i stated before, you can't compare the "realism" of a Strategy game with the "realism" of the Star Trek universe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
I admire the Federation and it's principles, however I also know that the vision a lot of people have about it is not entirely accurate, and sometimes seems weak, becasue other have made it seem like they give in to others demands and not get involved when they should have. (Good example is several instances in the Path to 2409) Of course this is how I see the Federation. Strong capable, wise, and while favoring peaceful resolution, will fight and defend them selves if they are forced to.

After all, Name a time where a captain hasn't fired back when attacked simply becasue they didn't get direct orders from command to defend them selves.
Maybe it's just my fault because i am a fan of those times where Picard was still a Diplomat and not John McLane 2.0.

Thank you for reading.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
10-25-2010, 04:17 PM
You should read my post I started, it basically talks about this very subject w/ some differences.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=184374
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-25-2010, 11:50 PM
I think the 11th movie puts it best. "Star Fleet is a Peace Keeping Armada"

I could go argue with the Space empire Simulations, but I think Q would be a better example. Remember the First Time Q introduces Picard to the Borg?(Q who) Do you remember the point Q was trying to make to Picard?

summed up, there are situation in which Picard and his "mighty Star Fleet" are not ready for, and that there are some Races out there that you can't solve with diplomacy.

I'll link a nice review about it, though it is very opinionated, but it does a great job of exploring both the Borg, the Q, and the films in general.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-26-2010, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota2063 View Post
I think the 11th movie puts it best. "Star Fleet is a Peace Keeping Armada"

I could go argue with the Space empire Simulations, but I think Q would be a better example. Remember the First Time Q introduces Picard to the Borg?(Q who) Do you remember the point Q was trying to make to Picard?

summed up, there are situation in which Picard and his "mighty Star Fleet" are not ready for, and that there are some Races out there that you can't solve with diplomacy.

I'll link a nice review about it, though it is very opinionated, but it does a great job of exploring both the Borg, the Q, and the films in general.
Hmm, the link didn't go through. but I think I found a much better review of my point.
http://www.youtube.com/user/sfdebris...8D1ECED34A6F10
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-01-2010, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Middlemore
Not required, the Assault Cruiser is already a great ship, and still superior to the Excelsior-R. Anybody who thinks it's inferior desperately needs to L2P.
That's a matter of opinion.

But as it stands, there is no doubt that the Excelsior is better than the Assault Cruiser at what the Assault Cruiser was meant to do; assault. The LtC Tac slot makes it a far better option for damage dealing.

With that said, however, there's no debate that the Assault Cruiser is a fine ship (I fly one) and more survivable than the Excelsior (due to the LtC Eng slot).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
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