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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
11-19-2010, 03:33 AM
I've updated the 100 weapon power chart with the new turret numbers. I managed to get around the bug still being on Tribble by using 3 EPS Flow MKX consoles, which neutralizes the energy drain issue.

As expected the increase in damage toward the far end of the weapons curve was about 15%. Although they have low base damage, turrets are very energy efficient due to a combination of the cannon firing mechanics and the fact they only drain 8 energy. As a result you don't see as much of a drop off in damage as you equip more weapons.

In fact, 8 turrets actually do more damage than 8 beams at 100 energy (though 7 beams still does more than both). A 6-7 turret build actually looks viable now, as it nearly does as much damage as beams. If you add CRF or CSV the damage would be likewise increased, without the negative of random aiming that comes with FAW. Adding an 8th turret still isn't really worth it at 100 energy, however, as the damage increase is negligible.

Unfortunately, 125 WP tests will have to wait until Tribble is actually patched because I don't have enough engineering console slots to get to 125 and still have 3 EPS Flow consoles equipped.

For a quick link to the updated chart, check my signature.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
11-19-2010, 05:29 AM
A quick question on your graphical charts while we wait for the next tribble build.

The results aren't proportional? You couldn't add the increase from 4 to 5 turrets (41 on 100pow) take it to the cannons graph and extrapolate the result for 4 cannons + 1 turret couldn't you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
11-19-2010, 05:47 AM
I thought EPS consoles did not have any effect on weapon power regeneration any more...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
11-19-2010, 07:14 AM
Thanks for looking into that Nagorak.

A quick question than, on turrets and energy drain. You said that 8 turrets will deal more than 8 beams because of the lower energy drain. For a ship with limited weapon slots like, say a science ship, that cant always divert a lot of power to weapons, would you think using 2 turrets and 2 beams vs 4 beams would help to boost DPS by negating too much energy loss.

Also, quick follow up question, turrets and single follow cannon mechanics, right? That means they get a bonus at close range. What does the damage of a single cannon and turret look like with in 1 km of a target opposed to, say dual beams, I've tried t test this myself, but I could never figure out how to read the combat log in STO, with all those (parentheses) and what not, it alway feels jumbled to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
11-19-2010, 09:05 AM
Nagorak,

My KDF Engineer has just made LTG1 and he flies a Carrier. As you may or may not know, the carrier is very hard to turn (5.0 Turn Rate, even fully spec'd). Currently I've got 6x Beam Arrays, but after looking at your chart, I'm wondering if it might be better to go with 6x Turrets. From your 100 Power Chart:
6x Beams (Broadside) == 368 DPS.
3x Beams (Front/Aft only) == 262 DPS.
6x Turrets == 327 DPS.
With all turrets I'd lose 41 DPS versus a Beam Broadside, but opponents usually snuggle into my Aft anyway, so I'm normally only pumping out 262 DPS. Meaning I'd actually gain 65 DPS (in most cases) using all turrets.

Am I reading that right?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
11-19-2010, 03:00 PM
PatricianVetinari],

You are reading the chart correctly, but you aren't factoring in damage drop off due to range. Beam weapon drop off is from 10km to 6km. Canon drop off is from 10 km to 4km. I order to get the equivalent (or better) DPs with cannons/turret you have to get in a lot closer to your targets. With the (lack of) maneuverability of a Carrier, you may be better off with beams with their much better damage drop off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
11-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Hmmm we need some insight into turret and beam combos at both inside and out side of 5km.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
11-19-2010, 06:35 PM
Great post, really helped me to understand my ship more.
Thanks for all the work you put into this to preset this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
11-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedom View Post
A quick question on your graphical charts while we wait for the next tribble build.

The results aren't proportional? You couldn't add the increase from 4 to 5 turrets (41 on 100pow) take it to the cannons graph and extrapolate the result for 4 cannons + 1 turret couldn't you?
I'm not sure. I'm trying to come up with a way of determining an equation in order to be able to extrapolate what different weapon combinations will do. The problem is there are so many variables that it's hard to isolate anything. I've toyed with some different ways of calculating results, based one what we know about how the weapons work, but they haven't really been accurate.

It might be possible to calculate cannon/dual cannon and turret combinations, since they all use the same underlying mechanics, just that turrets drain 8 energy instead of 10. With other weapons, like Dual Heavies you have to take into account the interaction between different cool down times. In order to see if that works I'll still have to do some tests and then see if I can come up with a way to theoretically calculate the same results.

To be honest the whole thing is kind of a nightmare, because running individual tests is a very inefficient way of actually figuring anything out, but without the actual source code from the game it's hard to come up with something that models the results.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
11-19-2010, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raso
Thanks for looking into that Nagorak.

A quick question than, on turrets and energy drain. You said that 8 turrets will deal more than 8 beams because of the lower energy drain. For a ship with limited weapon slots like, say a science ship, that cant always divert a lot of power to weapons, would you think using 2 turrets and 2 beams vs 4 beams would help to boost DPS by negating too much energy loss.

Also, quick follow up question, turrets and single follow cannon mechanics, right? That means they get a bonus at close range. What does the damage of a single cannon and turret look like with in 1 km of a target opposed to, say dual beams, I've tried t test this myself, but I could never figure out how to read the combat log in STO, with all those (parentheses) and what not, it alway feels jumbled to me.
How much power are you running to weapons, around 50ish? The combination of 2 turrets and 2 beams could boost damage, or it could possibly decrease it. The reason being that when you're not broadside only 2 of your weapons are firing, so you only are draining 10 power. Depending on how you equipped the turrets, you could have a situation where you always have 3 weapons firing (if you put one in the fore and one aft). So would that do more damage than 2 beams, it's hard to say.

Just as a rule of thumb, you can figure the damage reduction by taking the energy drain and multiplying it by your total damage output. This will be a more pessimistic result than you'll actually experience in the game, due to the cool down mechanics, etc.

I'd actually recommend putting one dual beam in the front, since that will only fire in the frontal arc. Then you can equip a second beam in front, and two in the rear. That way you'll never fire more than 3 weapons (20 power drain). By just using the quick calculation 4 beams firing would be -30 power, so at 50 power all four would fire at 20, for 80 damage. Whereas with only 3, you'd have -20, so all three would fire at 30 power for 90 damage. Meanwhile your frontal arc damage will be better too. Now, like I said, this is more pessimistic than the actual result you'll see in the game, so it's possible that the four beams would still do more damage in broadside than the three, but it won't be a big difference.

Another possibility would be putting 3 beams in the rear and 2 dual beams in the front, that way you keep the decent broadside damage and add a solid punch to the front without having to worry about too much energy drain in any situation. The trick is to decouple your different firing arcs from one another, so you never have too many weapons firing at once. Using turrets has the opposite effect, but I really don't have enough information to really estimate the result of your question.

In terms of the range drop off, at 1 km all of the weapons do full power. Cannon damage (which includes turrets) starts to drop off after 2 km, while beams drop off after 1 km, but beams drop off slower. So, the further away you are, the less damage cannons do compared to beams. That is another thing to take into account. Like I said, there are too many variables.

You can see the damage output of beams vs cannons at different ranges here.
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