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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-25-2010, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
Fair enough.. but you have to look at the bigger picture.. Currently a cruiser can do the same dps as an escort maybe not quite as good alpha.

Stop being a bad escort pilot.
Stop taking bad escort pilots as example and baselines for your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
but a darn lot more survival.
which appears to be the ******ned point of this ship class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekkameron View Post
This was started with a cruiser that is a modified version of a 120 year old ship that for some reason could blast the Federation flagship out of the er.. water..
The excelsiors performance boost over the AC is statistical in nature and does not translate over into the game with people exploding left and right. Your point is mood.

+ due to the tanking mechanics, the AC will NEVER lose to the Excel, ever. Unless the captain is a dumbarse and we shouldn't tailor our game towards dumbarses.



When you get to the top layer of players you notice that fights are pretty much 50/50, depending more on luck (crits) than anything.
If you go into team battles in that top layer, its a combo of both luck and team skill - team skill being coordination, communication, knowledge of the game in the group and the wit to have alternative boff, console and weapon setups in your inventory..... ready to be used according to situation....




Do not take average joe as a baseline for balance suggestion, he is stupid.
He has failed to listen to the tutorial emh when it said you could shift power to specific shield sectors.

IT IS A PAIN to see so many people splode in mere seconds because they basically are to dumb to live and die with 3 of their 4 shields sectors untouched.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-25-2010, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
The main issue isn't that cruisers are op... its that all the cruisers running around have done 2 things. One they have made well oiled premade groups extremely hard to beat. (Theres an issue when most dump there escorts) Two they have made fed pugs extremely weak. As a mainly klink player... yes its funny, annoying, and somewhat boring hitting a fed pug of tactical cruisers. They all pop like candy and come cry how op the klingons are.

Too the idea I could see this working if the main idea is to drive people AWAY from cross classing. I just don't see the issue with the cross classing. If people wish to gimp there damage in a cruiser... or gimp there healing in an escort, thats there build choice and there are ways to make all the possible combos work.

My main issue with the idea in general, and I don't mean to sound all negative. Is I see this as a way to really level every option off... which has up side in some peoples eyes, I just don't think we need to be leveled. As far as the idea, no its not the worst idea I have heard, what other ideas to you have to make this work. The example you gave was to basicly gimp overall dps on escorts by increasing recharge times (or reducing it for other ships same thing) and my decreasing the cooldown on a cruiser yes you bring up the silly DPS number that too many people consider when building their tacs.

I'm a pretty open guy... flesh it out for us how else could we make this idea work?
Well, as I said, the examples were just rough. The example with the escort was to show a very high burst dps with alpha and a longer cooldown. This goes along to create those massive damage spikes that escorts love to do. But that was just an example.

This would not only have to be for those abilities. They could be for Miracle worker, where in an escort, it does a greater percentage of healing to hull than shields.. or vice versa. I am not trying to gimp or increase the power of a cross class. I am simply saying that there is a way to create a difference between the abilities in ships, to create a more interesting tactical choice/reason to fly X ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-25-2010, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
Well, as I said, the examples were just rough. The example with the escort was to show a very high burst dps with alpha and a longer cooldown. This goes along to create those massive damage spikes that escorts love to do. But that was just an example.

This would not only have to be for those abilities. They could be for Miracle worker, where in an escort, it does a greater percentage of healing to hull than shields.. or vice versa. I am not trying to gimp or increase the power of a cross class. I am simply saying that there is a way to create a difference between the abilities in ships, to create a more interesting tactical choice/reason to fly X ship.
I do see the thinking... I just think it would be better to do it in ways that don't effect the captain choice. It seems to me any game that has tried that, has ended up with combos that are obviously the best choice, there by killing choice. It happens in STO as well... I mean who doesn't use the Capx3 Shield... unless you found a MK XII capx2 by random fluke.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-25-2010, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
One other note... I could see this working perhpas on general skills (not captain skills)

For example.

Evasive Manuvers. Could provide a higher Resist buff on an escort then on a cruiser. This might go a long way to bringing some poeple back to escorts. Or the duration could be longer.

Brace for impact... same thing bigger ship so cruisers perhaps get a longer duration.

Sci ships could get a balance on both powers... little longer BFI over the escort... little longer EM over the cruiser.
Exactly. This is what I am talking about. Captain Skills working slightly differently, based on the ship choice. It could change the dynamic of combat in interesting ways. This goes up, that goes down... but the average value is equal in usefulness.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-25-2010, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
I do see the thinking... I just think it would be better to do it in ways that don't effect the captain choice. It seems to me any game that has tried that, has ended up with combos that are obviously the best choice, there by killing choice. It happens in STO as well... I mean who doesn't use the Capx3 Shield... unless you found a MK XII capx2 by random fluke.
Actually, i am a fan of resilient shields.

Yeah, there are combos that always come out as "best choice". The same goes for ship powers and other things in game. But the idea here is to promote variety.

For example,.. maybe attack pattern alpha does less damage in a cruiser, but can be used more often,... but the average damage boost is going to be the same over the course of 5 minutes between that and an escort. The difference is that the escort can do harder burst damage..and the cruiser does more sustained damage. The power still offers the same overall damage, but now has a different flavor, depending on the ship.

This goes the same with defensive powers and evasive powers...etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-25-2010, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
Stop taking bad escort pilots as example and baselines for your ideas.

.
Why not? it was crap cruiser pilots that have got us to this position
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-25-2010, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaruslothran View Post
Actually, i am a fan of resilient shields.

Yeah, there are combos that always come out as "best choice". The same goes for ship powers and other things in game. But the idea here is to promote variety.

For example,.. maybe attack pattern alpha does less damage in a cruiser, but can be used more often,... but the average damage boost is going to be the same over the course of 5 minutes between that and an escort. The difference is that the escort can do harder burst damage..and the cruiser does more sustained damage. The power still offers the same overall damage, but now has a different flavor, depending on the ship.

This goes the same with defensive powers and evasive powers...etc.
I do understand the idea your putting forth... I just think changing things like Alpha is going to lead to less variety. There are already way to many tactical cruisers that think the fact that they did 500k damage in there escort and are doing 500k damage in there cruiser is the same thing. The change your suggestion just makes that even more an issue. I think that same argument would lend itself to things like MW or Damp Field or any other captain skill as well. If rotate shields was able to put you at shield cap on one ship over the other you would fly that one... of course small changes to universal captain skills could help Cryptic steer the population to a more diversified landscape of ships.

I would say changing the Captain skills would simply be a nightamre to try and balance... or will end up too balanced and everyone really ends up being the same. I could see this working with the general captain skills as tactical or engi or sci end up with the same bonus based on ship. It could open up some gameplay choices with out pushing classes into one ship or the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-25-2010, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
I would rather think not. There is draw backs from going cross class thats not a bad thing. We don't need to improve tacticals in cruisers anymore at all. We don't need to gimp escorts with long cool downs on Tactical Captain skills... why would we need to be giving people boasts to re charge times cause they chose to fly a ship other then the class match? Things are fine the way they are. A tactical cruiser will NEVER out burst an escort thats fine we don't need to make it possible to ratchet up the DPS with there staying power.

I don't really see the need for this. If you can't find ways to make a cross class build work... well don't cross class. Honestly all the tactical cruisers running around now have already gimped themselves, most just don't realize it as they don't understand how to decipher game data.
if i find my way into a good team, i do not need to worry about my lack of healing. i can rely on my resist buffs and get engi teams thrown my way when i take oncoming fire.

my assault cruiser(U.S.S. Kratos) is more than capable of taking a hit or two. 1 on 1, i havent met a ship yet that i havent been able to eliminate in good time. ts only when its 3-4 on 1 that i start getting worried about not having someone to pop an engi team..

have you ever tried putting a tactical captain inside a defiant retrofit? think tube of toothpaste carelessly left on the floor in the dark.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19 What's the Point?
11-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Seriously, what's the point of trying to put a "penality" on particular combinations? I say this as a Tac/Cruiser:

With effort & trying things out, you can literally make ANY combination work. Yes, my combo isn't going to tank as well as an Eng/Cruiser, nor have the "punch" of a Tac/Escort, but I know how to work with what I have. And I do just fine in PvP. I can tank long enough to buy my team the time they need, I can heal my mates when they need it, & I can dish out a very good amount of damage myself (even surpassing some escorts I've encountered). And, humbly speaking, there has only been a handful of 1-on-1 matches to which I did not win. As for Klingons being so overpowered in PvP ... all they do is PvP. The major difference when it comes to PvP is who's working as a team & who isn't. That's all it comes down to. I've never seen ANY ship go rogue & succeed in PvP.

STO is the only MMORPG I've ever played, & I'm really not a big gamer. In truth, I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to video/computer games. But I do know if I can find a way to make something in STO work, anyone can.
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