Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
11-26-2010, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by champion1701 View Post
...having it be a "recreation" of the NX and not an actual NX helps... a little...
It helps none. The NX01 is an eyesore. It is one of the most immersion breaking inclusions among many. Camel, meet "the last straw". 25th century people. Whats with the museum?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
11-26-2010, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
The key is, people have to wrap their minds around not seeing these refits as "equal" to other T5 ships. I think the B'Rel does a fantastic job of bringing a lower tier ship up to T5, without unbalancing against the other T5 ships, and should be the model for the Refits of Starfleet's T2 ships.
The idea behind the "nay sayers" (I think) is that it's very tricky to refit a clunker and not give it powers that are seemingly near magical and out of place both in PVE and PVP .

I agree with you that at the beginning of the game you take out top-of-the-line enemy ships in T1 & T2 clunkers . However , the difference is that those ships (your ships) were not outfitted with uber powers , it was the enemies you fought were of weaker caliber .
And there is a huge difference there .

The B'Rel was given a "special power" that sorta equalized it's hull weaness , but if I play it against PVE or PVP enemies , I have to suspend dis-belief that this ship can survive the harshness of T5 , just as if I now replay the game from the start , I have to roll my eyes at all the Negh'Vars that I cream in my T1-T2 ships .
Because it's not realistic , not in T1-T2 , and nor would it be realistic to get creamed in PVP by a T5 Connie .

OTOTH I belive in giveing the ppl what they want , the question is what is it they want ?

Weak T5 ships with "classic" skins (and a low abilitie/slot count) , or T5 ships with full T5 abilities / slot counts ?
The latter has some ppl up in arms .

I'm wondering if it's possible to get both ?
[/quote]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
11-26-2010, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foss View Post
And a "Phoenix" retrofit !
with quantum launcher and Tricobalt weapons !
and maybe a Ablative armor and a Transphasic cloak ?
with a Warp 10.1 Warp travel capacity.
That's what I am talking about! it makes just as much sense to do this as it does to do the NX01 and the Excelsior. I want my Phoenix combat superiority dreadnought based on the original Cochrine mods of an ICBM!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
11-26-2010, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardassianNinja View Post
Most of us want more retrofits.
A vocal minority does not make up "most" of anything. It just makes that number of people incessant and attention getting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
11-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotrik1 View Post
The idea behind the "nay sayers" (I think) is that it's very tricky to refit a clunker and not give it powers that are seemingly near magical and out of place both in PVE and PVP .
But here's the thing. You see these same people, nay say against ships like the Nova, Excalibur and Sabre, because of the so called "clunker" ships.

The Nova, Excalibur and Sabre are not clunker ships. I've even pointed out that these ships are often times newer than other ships that got T5 treatment.

I'd be fine with a weak T5 (like the B'Rel) for the Nova, Excalibur and Sabre. I've even said in the past if the TOS Connie and NX simply couldn't be included, I could understand that. But that's because I'm willing to give a little. The opposition, is not. They would block ships like the Nova, Sabre, Akira, and Olympic, just to keep the TOS Connie and NX out of the top too. Simple solution. Allow for the Refit of Tier 2 and 3, and lock down Tier 1.

But the nay sayers don't see it that way. All they see is NO, even when their NO is directed at something that there is no reason it couldn't be a YES.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
11-26-2010, 03:55 PM
I think this whole debate could easily be put to bed in a manner which is acceptable to all parties.

Take the TOS Connie, and the NX Class, and follow the same philosophy as was done with the Nebula and Excelsior. However, instead of being Tier 3 and Tier 5, make it Tier 1 and Tier 3. The Tier 3 version of a TOS Connie and NX Class would be beefy enough to make playing with it in VA PvE fun, but because it's Tier 3, you will NEVER see it in PvP. If you did, it would go "pop" accordingly.

Then, that opens up Tier 2 for Refit. Take all Tier 2 ships, makes a general "Light Cruiser" T5 Refit, which follows the B'Rel method. Light duty, highly customizeable.

Then Tier 3 could be given full refits, based on their class, as was done with the Nebula and Excelsior and Defiant and Intrepid and Galaxy.

Then we can put this entire debate to bed...FOREVER. Because it would be done, and everyone gets a little something, without blowing believeability out of the water.

Could the naysayers get behind an idea like that though?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
11-26-2010, 04:00 PM
Really? This thread again? This is getting a competition between this topic and the Fed carriers, doesn't it?

Look, one more time, since apparently some people still did not understand it:

My opinion = I do not "hate" the NX. I liked Enterprise as a series (even still wish they'd do a 5th season), and I like the ship's design. That, however, does not change the fact that it simply does not belong into a game set in the year 2409:

It's a violation in style, as the ship does stand out from the rest and people do associate it with a completely different era. As well as you do yourself when you try to make it look even more in the 2150s with your ENT uniforms), so stop giving us this crap about it supposedly fitting into this year when you make every effort not to.

It is also a violation in canon: Yes, you can try to find excuses such as the "replica" stuff, but bottom line is that they are too easily discernible as being just that - excuses. There is no valid reason why Starfleet should invest resources into reconstructing clearly outdated designs when they have far more advanced ship plans available. A ship's shape does affect its efficiency during warp, including the stress on its hull and SIF grid. In addition to this, it is also directly connected to the destabilization of subspace caused by ships travelling at high warp. Why the khest do you think Starfleet switched to building stuff like triangular shaped hulls and angular nacelles and variable geometry pylons in the first place? Just because it looked fancy? Whilst that might apply to the studio decision, there are canon reasons behind it, and your proposal is completely ignoring this.

Don't let STO get turned into a game governed by excuses instead of atmosphere. It's already gone too far, anyways, where would you stop? Clearly, compromises such as the replica are still not enough.

Alternatively I would wish for a developer-implemented option to client-side change the appearance of other players' ships and characters, so that it at least looks fitting on one's own end. That'd even allow you folks to turn "futuristic" ships into contemporary models befitting the timeline you seem to prefer as well as determined to force into this game and upon other players. Win-win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Could the naysayers get behind an idea like that though?
You should rather ask if the yaysayers could get behind it. I doubt it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
11-26-2010, 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
You should rather ask if the yaysayers could get behind it. I doubt it.
I think you would find the "yaysayers" could get behind my idea, more so than the "naysayers."

Thus far, the "yaysayers" have been more about compromise. I will grant you that there are extremists that are dead set on a T5 TOS Connie or NX. But there are alot of moderates in this debate as well.

But thus far, I have yet to see a moderate on the NO side of this equation.

If the naysayers could find some middle ground, using a compromise solution as I've proposed on many occasions, I think you'd see the moderates drift towards that. Because a little something is better than nothing.

You'd still have the T5 TOS Connie and NX extremists, but they would suddenly become the minority, as the moderates and the naysayers, would have already agreed on an acceptable compromise.

If I could get my hands on a T3 TOS Connie, I'd be plenty happy. Would I love a T5 version instead? Sure! But I could settle for a T3, because the boost would be enough to allow me to have the fun I want, without unbalancing the game.

That's why I ask if the naysayers could get behind a compromise like this. Because if they can, then you'd find the moderates are much more likely to side with you, and be happy with what they can get, rather than being pushed into the extremist end of the spectrum because they get no compromise from the naysayer camp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
11-26-2010, 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
As I said above, no one would accept that a TOS Constitution could defeat a Sovereign, Galaxy, Ambassador, Excelsior, or even a TMP Constitution refit if they saw it happen in canon.
While I agre with you , I'll give you three examples from DS9 "Way of The Warrior" :

- When seeing "Fleet Flight" of the Kling fleet toward DS9 , you can clearly see tiny BOPs next to much larger BOPs .

- When the Defiant rescues Dukat and the Detapa Council , they face a Vorcha and a BOP .
It's pretty clear tha the BOP is pretty ineffectual againast thee Defiant , yet it keeps on fireing .

- During the Big Battle at the end , you do see DS9 taking out certin BOPs with "one shot / I win" shots .
Just one shot !

My poin is (I think ) that tho the smaller BOPs may be small , ineffectual against "current tech" and apperntly quite out dated , they are still in service for reasons that are not explained to us , the viewers .
I have no problem with the lack of explanation ...,the only problem I have if you will is the lack of use of older fed ships in modern trek shows .

Because it should work bouth ways ... -- if the Klings keep old tech arround because they see use for it , why not the feds ?

But as I said , older ships would need "Magic Powers" to keep up with modern ships in PVP .
Or ... we could consider that older tech is much bulkyer (TOS tech was certinly bulky) -- and in the small bodie of a refit you could cram a whole lot more MODERN TECH (including armor) because morern tech (consiles and such) would be a lot smaller .

The only question is power ...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
11-26-2010, 04:16 PM
I think the largest portion of the Yeasayer crowd would like to take their version of one of the iconic ships up and into endgame; i.e their TOS Connie and NX Replica ships. I don't see how this couldn't be a possibility considering how we've already got some powerful refits in service as it is. I think enough players want this for Cryptic to make it happen.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:22 AM.