Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
11-30-2010, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincire View Post
Glad you could divine my life's story from a few lines of text. Get a grip.
Well, you said you participated in "a handful" of PvP matches, that indicates you were just starting out, and the chance that you had rebuilt your character build and ship equipment is very small, thus, the reasonable assumption that you were still using your PvE build. Normally this wouldn't be a problem if, say, you were doing PvP at Lt. or Lt.Com. which is where most people started out, however, this is a Carrier thread, and you specifically mentioned that you believed the Carriers were at fault. Since Carriers are only present at end-game, that meant you were just starting PvP at endgame, vs Klingons who've been PVPing for most of their careers, and you're using a PvE build and upset that it wasn't working.

Add to that that you gave up quite early, and have not mentioned trying a different build or going back and trying new tactics indicates a immature and impatient outlook, much like an infant, thus, the translation.

if you continued reading, I gave you a run-down on exactly how I dealt with the problem of Carriers, to show you that they are a manageable challenge, if, you're willing to dedicate yourself to it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
11-30-2010, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphicZoid

This is NOT a PvP game. The MAJORITY of players play in PUG's. The battles had been more balanced, now they are not.
But PvP is and will always be a PvP game. Nothing will change that. Nerf Carriers, and you will complain about Klingon BoPs. Nerf BoPs, you can complain about Klingon Cruisers. Nerf Klingon Cruisers, you will complain about Klingon Escorts. Nerf Klingon Escorts, and you will complain about Fed Cruisers. Nerf Fed Cruisers, you will complain about Fed Escorts. Nerf Fed Escorts, you will complain about Fed Science Vessels...

OF course, at some point you have nerfed yourself, and everything will start again.


If you don't want to "win" in PvP, but only to dabble in it, don't expect more then the results of a dabbler.

If a group of players was to focus on, say, the Klingon Scout Force Fleet Action, you, unfocused and unexperienced with it, wouldn't beat them. You'd never go to first place. Should we nerf whatever they are playing because you can't get the Klingon Scout Force trophy with players like that around? Do you even believe that would work? A week or a month later, they would have the next Klingon Scout Force winner build (but at least you might have been able to get the accolade in the short time window in between.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
11-30-2010, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincire View Post
Besides, if you have to build a certain way just to have a chance of taking out a particular enemy in PvP, that's proof of balance problems right there.
Actually, no it's not. We haven't heard anybody complaining because it takes a specific build to pop "normal" Cruiser-tanks, or about Escorts having to build themselves to track and hunt down Battle Cruisers, or Escorts complaining about the builds that are necessary to pop BoPs.

It's all about Carriers, because they require teamwork, and all the Feds want to do is fly solo, even in PvP.

That build I told you about? Ignore it. Get three escorts, a Science Vessel, and a Cruiser together, have the Cruiser tank, have the Science Vessel heal, and let the Escorts focus fire on the Carrier, she'll go down, and no specific build was necessary.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
11-30-2010, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
No, you weren't specific, you said, and I quote:



And that's as specific as you got. So let's see here.. Confusing, damage dealing pets.. Well, that doesn't mean anything, are they jamming your sensors? The pets before the Carrier tweak were damage dealing as well, are they now dealing too much damage? PvP experience and balance is about as vague as you can get.. "something" needs to be done with targeting.. What do you mean? What "something? I'm asking for detailed, specific changes you propose. Because as is, it's just whining criticism, with no constructive proposals whatsoever.

And you know what, at VA, you have 10 Bridge officer slots, that's enough for two different crews, for two different ships. You can pick and choose four of those ten and spec them for ground. And at VA, you've gotten two T5 ship tokens, plus a Retrofit token, so you can get three T5 ships without spending EC or Emblems. Gear one ship for PvE, and one for PvP, and boom, you're not redoing your character for 10% of the game, you've got 100% of it covered. That's what I did, that Carrier hunter I posted? He has a Retrofit Intrepid waiting in the shipyard geared with Phasers, Tetryons & Quantums for any PvE mission I might want to try.

But, (because even I know you're not going to actually do any real work for PvP) how is this for reasoning: You're worried about Carriers. The suggestions we've been giving you are for Carriers. The Carrier Hunter I specced above? Not going to last a minute vs a smart BoP pilot.

You asked about Carriers, one specific type of KDF ship, that's what we've given you, why would you expect answers that will work for the whole game?

And that smart BoP pilot? That's why teamwork is important. While I rip the Carrier swarms to shreds, I need good Escort pilots keeping the BoP & Raptors off my back, and when the time comes, and I've trussed the Carrier up nice and pretty like a Thanksgiving Dinner? It's the Escort pilots job to feast.

If you don't want to spec for Carriers, then spec for something else, let us handle the Carriers, the problem is, too many PvE spoiled Feds don't want to spec for Carriers, they'd rather get on the Forums and cry Nerf.

So there's a shortage of decent anti-Carrier Pilots on the Fed side. Don't blame us, we're doing our part, and most people here in the forums recognize us for that, that's why they disagree with you. You can blame the lazy PvE spoiled Feds who'd rather cry Nerf on a balanced ship they're too lazy to figure out how to beat.. Because of the myth that there's no way to beat Carriers. Every thread like this in the Forums perpetuates the myth, and people who cherry pick which posts they'll acknowledge do their part as well.

Imagine if someone only judged this game by the forums, they'd think every kind of Klingon ship is drastically overpowered, that the STFs are impossible, and that Emblems are a rare and precious commodity!
Yes that's as detailed as I will get. Whining? Hardly. Stating an opinion. Others have gone into specifics, as to why the swarms are confusing, how you can't target a real player through the swarms, etc, etc. Certainly you've read the specifics mentioned by others before, no? I concur with them. No need for me to repeat them.

No I don't make proposals, I'm not a coder, let cryptic undo what they did prior to the problem, that would seem simple enough, no? Only they know what they did, my making a suggestion on how to fix it would be a guess at best and likely a poor one.

Again, prior to the changes to the carrier I was fine with PvP. No need for me to do this, or do that. It's not my problem alone. It's a multitude of people who are having issues. Fix the balance issue to the pre-problem period and 90% of us won't have to change our characters for 10% of the content. Democracy is a wonderful thing. I will look over your "Carrier Hunter" again. But let me one again say as plainly as I can.

I didn't have any issues with PvP before the Carriers were made OP. It's a game balance issue. There was balance, now due to a mistake, there is no longer balance. Jumping through hoops in the hope something works isn't what anyone should have to consider doing. Lets just all make the game fun. Kinda like it was before the OP Carrier came along. Win win for everyone

I don't blame any of the players, Cryptic made the mistake and made the carrier unbalanced and OP. It's not a balanced ship and time and time again people with much more experience and knowledge about them, namely, Klingon Carrier players, have come forward and set that straight for us all.

I personally never asked for answers to the whole game or anything else, I am simply supporting the OP and am in agreement with them and others.

And just as a side, I have no issues getting my own emblems. Have completed one of the STF's multiple times, a few do have bugs... so yeah, that sucks. And yes, the Carrier is IMHO and in the HO of others, Op.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
11-30-2010, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But PvP is and will always be a PvP game. Nothing will change that. Nerf Carriers, and you will complain about Klingon BoPs. Nerf BoPs, you can complain about Klingon Cruisers. Nerf Klingon Cruisers, you will complain about Klingon Escorts. Nerf Klingon Escorts, and you will complain about Fed Cruisers. Nerf Fed Cruisers, you will complain about Fed Escorts. Nerf Fed Escorts, you will complain about Fed Science Vessels...

OF course, at some point you have nerfed yourself, and everything will start again.


If you don't want to "win" in PvP, but only to dabble in it, don't expect more then the results of a dabbler.

If a group of players was to focus on, say, the Klingon Scout Force Fleet Action, you, unfocused and unexperienced with it, wouldn't beat them. You'd never go to first place. Should we nerf whatever they are playing because you can't get the Klingon Scout Force trophy with players like that around? Do you even believe that would work? A week or a month later, they would have the next Klingon Scout Force winner build (but at least you might have been able to get the accolade in the short time window in between.)
I've never had a complaint about anything in the game, regarding it's power, until this issue. So I disagree. I'm not just looking for a reason to be wasting my time here on this or any issue, I have better things to do trust me. But this issue is clearly a problem in my opinion and Im doing what I can to help make the game better for everyone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
11-30-2010, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincire View Post
Besides, if you have to build a certain way just to have a chance of taking out a particular enemy in PvP, that's proof of balance problems right there. I've got no issue with the other types of ships.
I'm glad you feel this way.

I've had to redesign my BoP to take out cruisers over escorts and feel that I shouldn't have too just to compete in pvp. Its time to nerf Cruisers.
Since I had to be spec'ed for escort control earlier thats proof of thier OP nature as well - so nerf Escorts. As soon as I decide the best way to burn down science ships, we can nerf them again as well.
In fact after all the nerfing things should be balanced, but I personally may be a bit OP - so nerf me next.
Of course that means you and others may be more OP than me so its neccessary to nerf everyone else as well. After all the nerfing is settled we can see whom may be on top again and nerf them just a little more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphicZoid
Lets just all make the game fun. Kinda like it was before the OP Carrier came along. Win win for everyone
Except those players who enjoy and look forward to playing the carrier.
They get to be shoved back into the role of "useless bait" again, as thats is what the carrier was before the PET changes were implemented. I'm sure they'll enjoy being the big, slow, toothless cruiser again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
11-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
That's awful! You know why I don't vent? Because I can't. Mute people play MMOs too!
Me and my friends use skype. Ventrillo is a horrible way to rely on anything since I've known many girls who found out someone was using voice masking software to sound female. With Skype, you get the camera working for you as well. And you can you type chat while using it. You can still be on camera and type chat in the event your mic isn't working or something else like your own personal situation exists and prevents speech. And you can use it for regular phone calls, it's an amazing program.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
11-30-2010, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphicZoid
Yes that's as detailed as I will get. Whining? Hardly. Stating an opinion. Others have gone into specifics, as to why the swarms are confusing, how you can't target a real player through the swarms, etc, etc. Certainly you've read the specifics mentioned by others before, no? I concur with them. No need for me to repeat them.

No I don't make proposals, I'm not a coder, let cryptic undo what they did prior to the problem, that would seem simple enough, no? Only they know what they did, my making a suggestion on how to fix it would be a guess at best and likely a poor one.

Again, prior to the changes to the carrier I was fine with PvP. No need for me to do this, or do that. It's not my problem alone. It's a multitude of people who are having issues. Fix the balance issue to the pre-problem period and 90% of us won't have to change our characters for 10% of the content. Democracy is a wonderful thing. I will look over your "Carrier Hunter" again. But let me one again say as plainly as I can.

I didn't have any issues with PvP before the Carriers were made OP. It's a game balance issue. There was balance, now due to a mistake, there is no longer balance. Jumping through hoops in the hope something works isn't what anyone should have to consider doing. Lets just all make the game fun. Kinda like it was before the OP Carrier came along. Win win for everyone

I don't blame any of the players, Cryptic made the mistake and made the carrier unbalanced and OP. It's not a balanced ship and time and time again people with much more experience and knowledge about them, namely, Klingon Carrier players, have come forward and set that straight for us all.

I personally never asked for answers to the whole game or anything else, I am simply supporting the OP and am in agreement with them and others.

And just as a side, I have no issues getting my own emblems. Have completed one of the STF's multiple times, a few do have bugs... so yeah, that sucks. And yes, the Carrier is IMHO and in the HO of others, Op.
So..
  • You won't do into detail about how the Carrier is Op..
  • You won't make any suggestions as to how to fix the supposed problem..
  • You won't take any suggestions about how to defeat Carriers as they are..

So.. What exactly, have you added to this conversation?

And besides, did you ever wonder why they changed the Carrier in the first place? Maybe it was because it was underpowered before? And so they brought it up to snuff, and now it's balanced vs a team specced for PvP that works together?

And you know what,? Your opinion, and your inability to handle Carriers as they are now? Don't matter. You know why? Because the devs, the ones who actually make the decisions, know better:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Carriers?

As has been mentioned many times, Beam Array: Fire at Will, Cannon: Scatter Volley, Eject Warp Plasma, and others are all great abilities to limit a carriers effectiveness.
What have I been saying..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Klingons are far away from being the unstoppable powerhouse that many of you seem to think they are.
Is there an echo in here!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
If you're having trouble facing off against Klingons, try asking a Klingon how to beat them. Almost every single one of them will tell you what your team needs to do in order to counter anything they do. However, PvP is a team based game.

If you actually expect to run into a PvP match, not work with your teammates, and still be able to faceroll your keyboard for the win, it's time to wake up and smell the disruptor burns.
it seems that this place has great acoustics, my words keep coming back, only slightly different!

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Every power in this game has a counter. Almost everyone in the PvP Community wants to help you learn how to succeed in PvP. That means they'll tell you their tips and tricks, including what works to stop what they do. Try listening to what they have to say, and take their position into account. Don't just assume that since the other team has battle cloak (Or Carriers. -Katic) that this one ability is why you keep losing.
Geez, who would have thought that? Oh, wait a minute..

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
I'm telling you right now, cloak, and battle cloak have their uses. But if your entire team isn't working together, and know how to use that ability, it becomes a hindrance, not an advantage.

Same thing with the carrier swarm.

Both of these can also be easily countered by readily available skills as well.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Carriers are not OP, people who actually PvP know it, the Devs know it, and you're plainly wrong in saying they are, face it, the debates over.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
11-30-2010, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincire View Post
At the time, I was attempting to harass the carrier(s) in my Nebula on my Engineer VA. 1 carrier wasn't quite as big of a problem but once there were 2 or more; no dice. There were simply too many adds for me to handle by myself.

Pet classes tend to become a problem in games like these and the Carrier is no different. Hence all the threads complaining about them. Besides, if you have to build a certain way just to have a chance of taking out a particular enemy in PvP, that's proof of balance problems right there. I've got no issue with the other types of ships.

I've since given up on PvP as a Fed.
Pets pop easily with AoE damage abilities.

Unfortunately, 99.9999% of players don't rely heavily on AoE abilities because they mostly focus on one target.

With two carriers, you need two carrier hunters to have odds favor your team over theirs. This is analogous to the OpFor having two scissors and needing two rocks to beat them and have the odds statistically favor you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
11-30-2010, 12:37 PM
We're obviously in a circular argument here.

I see quite a few people stating the exact same things repeatedly, and it's obvious that this conversation is going nowhere.

Just like this argument, PvE is circular. NPC enemies follow a particular behavior and stick to it. Player Controlled enemies do not. They aren't circular.

Humans learn and adapt to face and overcome challenges. Something an NPC can't do. If a build isn't working in a PvP match, a human will change their build and strategy to become stronger. Sometimes, in the middle of a match.

We don't consider carriers to be OP. There are many skills and abilities which work quite well to counter their abilities. If you honestly believe that you should be able to face roll your keyboard and still win at PvP regardless of what your opponent's or your own build and or team is made up of, to quote myself:

"It's time to wake up and smell the disruptor burns."

PvP is, was, and will remain a game of skill, strategy, and teamwork. Change your strategy up, try a different build, continue to hone your PvP skills. Or, keep posting circular arguments. I'll continue to close threads that contain them.

Thanks,

Stormshade
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