Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
12-02-2010, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am sorry, but I think this aspect is of so minor relevane to this game that I am not really interested in discussing this. I am not strictly opposed to it. As you see, the difference in damage is pretty low.
But don't come to me when people blow you up with Tri-Cobalts and Heavy Plasma Torps. :p
I'm afraid it is not so minor. Using what I posted above, here is the result if you have a shield with ONE point:

1,000 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 3,249
32.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 67.51%
Or:
500 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 2,749 (Resiliant Only)
27.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 72.51%

1 Shield point is blocking over half the damage, and that is even before we get to hull resistance. And why would I be complaining if someone was able to score a direct hit with a tri-cobalt/plasma on a weak shield facing and take a nice chunk of my hull (if not destroy me)? As it stands now, escorts do that with cannons, something that I cannot shoot down.

And do remember, the 6 second shield tick only applies if you do NOT redistribute your shields. In theory, while you are moving your shield energy around, you could keep atleast 1 point of shields up on each torpedo from a photon high yield III.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The "state of the art" is that you do not need an Escort to destroy a Cruiser. Cruisers and Science Vessels can achieve it better. They might take longer, but neither of them is as a fragile as an Escort, so if you want to take the safe bet, you minimize the amount of Escorts you use
You are right, you don't need an escort, but you should need more than one vessel firing at a cruiser to take it down reasonably. An escort by itself shouldn't be able to do so in any reasonable length of time because the cruiser can continue to out heal it while damaging the escort. Science is more of a wild card; especially giving it has several abilities that can actually bypass the shields and do decent hull damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Again, I don't think it's a major change. I know who it will hit most, though. Escorts and Bird of Preys. Currently, you have at least to bring their shields down if your HYT or Tri-Cobalt is to destroy them. With your change, it seems that even that might not help anymore.
Shields are already at the cap for kinetic damage (75%) last I checked. A HYT Quantum III would be dealing about 18,000 (assuming 4.5k per torpedo) raw damage, but would only do 4,050 or so to the shields. A tri-cobalt is somewhat random on damage, but lets say you have a 24k raw hit would still damage the shields by 5,400. If you hit a BoP on a shield facing say at 1,000, the shield would still mitigate some of that damage (see equations above) and thus not be one hitters. Of course, if I recall, don't most PvPers say Birds of Prey are supposed to be paper anyways? So what is wrong if you didn't knock down a tricobalt before it smashed into your damaged shields and caused major if not lealthal damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
If it's okay with you, we can let our points stand here and let others make the decisions. In the end, I don't have to convince you, and you don't have to convince me. (Though feel bring up counterpoints to this post - it would be unfair not to let you do that or force you to accept that I have the last word. As much as I, of course, want to have it. )
I have no problem exchanging logic with you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
12-02-2010, 11:37 AM
I personally dislike the fact that so little shield points can so greatly reduce torpedo dammage while beam overload can punch through and do massive dammage after the shields absorb thier part.

Torpedoes should have a similiar mechanic in combat against shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
12-02-2010, 11:51 AM
I like the way this idea is going. It puts more emphasis on ship management(definitly Trek)....and less emphasis on spamming BOff specials and wizadry(definitly not Trek).

It would make power adjustments and EPS management more important...definitly a win in my book.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
12-02-2010, 04:11 PM
Sorry for the minor derail but I think my brain just exploded

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The formula itself ensures you can't get 100 % hull resistance (which would make you immune to damage) but there is also a cap at 75 %. (The formula was provided by Cryptic several months ago, and I am assuming it is still up to date). To reach the cap, you would need to stack resistance for a total of 300.

Is this the same defense cap as the flying at (26 or 27 impulse) speed (75% too)....that being the case is the armor consoles I have equipped totally useless?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
12-03-2010, 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_Picard
Sorry for the minor derail but I think my brain just exploded




Is this the same defense cap as the flying at (26 or 27 impulse) speed (75% too)....that being the case is the armor consoles I have equipped totally useless?
No, the defense cap is unrelated to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursix
Shields are already at the cap for kinetic damage (75%) last I checked.
I think, but have never tested, that shield damage resistance and the reduced kinetic damage "stack", e.g. torpedoes generally deal only 1/4 damage against shields, and if the shield has resists, this is applied to the remaining damage. If this wasn't the case, then torpedoes might actually be more effective against hardened shields then I knew, which could make Photon Torpedoes a more viable weapon against cruisers. (Don't Torps normally have higher DPS then energy weapons?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
12-03-2010, 06:10 AM
Normally? No, a torpedo's DPS is usually smaller than your average energy weapons. The only time I see torpedo DPS rise above 1000+ DPS is when you prep for a high yield.

They might allow the stacking on Kinetic damage with the inherit 75% resistance, but I know it is done to where it will never equal a total of 100%. Next time I run into an NPC that throws quants at me, I'll log the battle damage and figure that out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
12-03-2010, 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursix
Normally? No, a torpedo's DPS is usually smaller than your average energy weapons. The only time I see torpedo DPS rise above 1000+ DPS is when you prep for a high yield.

They might allow the stacking on Kinetic damage with the inherit 75% resistance, but I know it is done to where it will never equal a total of 100%. Next time I run into an NPC that throws quants at me, I'll log the battle damage and figure that out.
If the damage reduction factors are multiplied, they can never reach 0, unless one of the factors is 0 - which would mean you were indeed already immune to damage. Effective Damage = Normal Damage x Damage Reduction Factor (e.g. 25 % if a ship has 75 % resistance).

I looked up the weapon stats in-game: The base damage for energy weapons is indeed lower then for torps, but energy weapons damage is increased based on energy levels, leading to a higher damage output. At least that's the math for quantums. Photon Torpedo DPS is higher then Quantums, but I don't think the difference is big enough to make a difference to most energy weapons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
12-03-2010, 01:05 PM
My testing so far shows no reduction to the damage torpedoes do to shields when you harden them. So I'd say they are capped at 75% regardless of abilities.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
12-14-2010, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursix
My testing so far shows no reduction to the damage torpedoes do to shields when you harden them. So I'd say they are capped at 75% regardless of abilities.
Interesting find. Question might be - is that something re-evaluate the effectiveness of torpedoes?

My own "testing" (e.g. playing with the power levels) indicate that at the energy values typically reached at end-game, energy weapons beat torpedoes in raw DPS numbers. Which would suggest, no, there is nothing to re-evaluate. Only in the worst case scenario - 75 % shield resistance - torpepdoes can catch up to beams in damage. Torpedoes remain only useful for special procs (Chroniton) or for their burst damage potential against unshielded enemies (Tri-Cobalts and Quantum Torpedoes mostly.)

I think "fixing torpedoes" might be a topic for its own thread.

I used this opportunity to also clean up the original post in formatting and excessive use of parantheses (something which I really like to use (see?) ).
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