Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
12-14-2010, 08:44 PM
I'd like more visual customization, right now we're severely restricted. I can't even make my main character's race due to head size slider limitations...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
12-14-2010, 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerhelm View Post
I'd like more visual customization, right now we're severely restricted. I can't even make my main character's race due to head size slider limitations...
Good point, I also would love to be able to splice together ship parts of generic race ships to create something not nec already on the books.

I would leave the Iconic ship designs alone like Romulan ships for example, but how about letting us customize the looks of the generic race ships for foundry missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
12-14-2010, 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
I'm going to have to agree with LordOfPit here.

This is definitely something which could be exploited, and there for likely won't make it in. That said, more tools to customize NPCs may well show up later on down the road.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Couldn't you just make it so if you add abilities and raise stats for characters then nothing changes. All you've done is make the enemy harder by giving them more options, so there's no possible exploit there. All the associated rewards with the enemy remain the same.

If abilities are taken away or stats are lowered, you simply have the editor auto-flag the characters to give no rewards. So whether you strip the NPC entirely, or just remove five hit points, the end result is the same... no XP, no drops. You get literally nothing for killing said NPC.

Seems like that would remove any possibility of exploitation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
12-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Quote:
Perhaps they could, but if Foundry missions grant an end-of-mission XP/loot reward, removing skill point and item drop chances from NPCs customized this way may still leave some exploits uncovered.
I am not sure how. as it stands, I can build a mission entirely without combat, right? So what could a fully customizable NPC that cannot grant any skill point or item rewards (heck, he might not even count for Accolades and Klingon Kill missions) do?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
12-15-2010, 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
I'm going to have to agree with LordOfPit here.

This is definitely something which could be exploited, and there for likely won't make it in. That said, more tools to customize NPCs may well show up later on down the road.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Could you remove *all* rewards from any enemy npc that is customized? (and even make them not count for kill accolades).

It still looks like a big job though, and I think people will have fun with the foundry anyway.

Edit: just realised everyone else said the same thing, must read more .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
12-15-2010, 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am not sure how. as it stands, I can build a mission entirely without combat, right? So what could a fully customizable NPC that cannot grant any skill point or item rewards (heck, he might not even count for Accolades and Klingon Kill missions) do?
The question is in the rewards and mission setup. Lessons from the UGC tool-set in City of Heroes have shown that if players, as authors, are given power over ability selection of NPC's as well as enemy placements, someone will find a way to exploit things as long as there is a reward system. In my experience, there's no such thing as a full proof system, so I'd rather err on the side of caution.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
12-15-2010, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
That said, more tools to customize NPCs may well show up later on down the road.
May? You mean theres even a possiblity that they wont? Wouldnt this just be a matter of time thing?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
12-15-2010, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordOfPit View Post
The question is in the rewards and mission setup. Lessons from the UGC tool-set in City of Heroes have shown that if players, as authors, are given power over ability selection of NPC's as well as enemy placements, someone will find a way to exploit things as long as there is a reward system. In my experience, there's no such thing as a full proof system, so I'd rather err on the side of caution.
I think you could make added NPC options that the foundry could recognize and take into account and then make the nec subtractions or additions to the reward system.

For example: you choose story NPC from a drop down menu then the system sets a flag for that NPC and tells the server not to give any credit or rewards based on that NPC.
Once you click story NPC then you could do pretty much what ever you wanted to do with that NPC's stats, but no matter what, the flag is set and that NPC cannot give any credit to the player except in terms of mission completion or an objective solved and if you get 200 skillpoints for a mission completion under a normal situation then because you have a flagged story NPC you then get 100 skill points at the end and no mission reward item.

I think what people are saying is not out of the realm of possibilities, and I hope they give the idea some thought to allowing players to make NPC changes beyond cosmetic changes.

I think I see one of those exploitable possibilities, but I have full confidence that they could shore up those possibilities and test it out to make sure that it is working as it should.

I personally don't want to make easier mobs myself, but I can see why for story reasons some might want a 1 shotter for their mission for some sort of story effect.
I would love to be able to make insanely powerful bosses and give them abilities that could insta-pop a group if they shoot the boss at the wrong time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
12-15-2010, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordOfPit View Post
The question is in the rewards and mission setup. Lessons from the UGC tool-set in City of Heroes have shown that if players, as authors, are given power over ability selection of NPC's as well as enemy placements, someone will find a way to exploit things as long as there is a reward system. In my experience, there's no such thing as a full proof system, so I'd rather err on the side of caution.
And yet, I am still not seeing it. Maybe because apotential exploit is already in-game? You can add NPC ships and groups that are allied with you and will help you fight your enemies. Theoretically, this will make missions easier and killing enemies for kill accolade and cheap skill points might go faster.

But removing that functionality makes little sense. Either even these skill point rewards have to be turned off, or they are just acceptable.

It seems as if Foundry content mission rewards will be dependent on play time in some shape or form. I don't need NPCs with customized abilities to "game" this at all (and ultimately, t here is no point to it. So what, the player sits stationary for 12 hours to farm Foundry SP while some modified AI and some scripts on his machine ensures he is not going AFK and something happens that ensures the mission time is counted for skill points. Is that really the type of abuse we worry about? He's not getting massive skill points or item rewards in a short amount of time!)

I can understand the concerns, but I really suggest looking a little closer into it. For all I know, the very basic idea "no rewards for a customized NPC" might be impossible in the system and break the game and they are not going to rewrite the core engine to get there.


But in the end, I would already be happy if I can determine that this mission will contain an enemy Dreadnought even as single player mission, or my KDF mission contains the KDF player shooting at KDF ships that fire Disruptors and Photon Torpedoes and have powers, movement and hit boxes just like a KDF ship. (I could even live with the idea that the single-player dreadnought in combat abilities is just a Neg'Var with the hit box, looks and maneuverability of a Vo'Quv, but none of its dreadnought-making shields and hull and pet creation abilities.)

I don't really want to program the NPC AI myself, though I am happy to give some input on what I think can or could be done to improve it. (And I did. http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=182954 )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
12-15-2010, 08:27 AM
I fully agree that we should be able to make "harder boss fights" even if it meant those "edited" NPC's were removed from the loot table.

The whole loot table, scaling NPC's, etc sounds like a complicated core game mechanic. In so much as, when they created Foundry the loot table was already tied to the NPCs.

The question is, can this be done without throwing a snaffu into the whole NPC, loot, scaling tech? As I suspect, the loot table wasn't added to Foundry, it was already hard coded to the NPCs, and this is the concern of the devs. The work involved to cut the ties to the scale and loot tables might be so overly complicated (if even possible) that it's just not worth the risk. Risking a chance at breaking the main game to add features to foundry is probably not an option.

Maybe down the road when the dust settles and Foundry is a more stable platform, they might revisit this idea. For now, we must be content for the Devs to plug away at Foundry to get the features they have laid out in the Road Map working.

In the meantime, leave the Weekly Episodes and Epic missions in their hands.
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