Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
12-15-2010, 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
This part made me chuckle. Thanks you for that.
It maDE me happy. Now I can relax during PvP play as the ship is doing all the work.:p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
12-15-2010, 09:22 AM
[quote=Roach;3226068]
Quote:
No one has cast doubts on you abilityin pvp, just that you may need to look elswhere than KDF OPness as the reason when you do not hold your own.



Cloaking is an unbalancing factor in pvp? Did you not know the KDF has cloaking?
Its is a defining characteristic of the Klingon war machine from the genre since 1973 and is something that every fed should know, a klingon will use to its highest advantage in combat.
Hardly an unbalancing power, since its not a surprise that the KDF has it, but certainly an advantage that the KDF uses well.

The constant complaint by the some feds that cloaking is too much the advantage really shows the spoiled nature of themselves to the rest of the playerbase in my opinion and due to its long history within the genre as a KDF and Romulan technology, such cries for nerf should be ignored by the devs. By all means lets change the rules so the Hero can find it easier to win since the existing rules don't favor this outcome in thier minds.
I understand where your coming from, I'm picking up what your putting down. Kirk never had these issues, Picard always came out on top against all comers, in fact there is a history from the genre of fed victory over the KDF that must be maintained right? The KDF in STO are just not co-operating are they? They really should learn thier places. :p


THE CLOAK in its present form in STO is far more powerful that its counterparts in the movies.

In the movies cloaked ships were vulnerable. In the Search for Spock the cloaked ship was able to be seen (distorted) at in between 1-2 kellicams. Which was extreme end of their weapons. I will assume that this is the 10k range.

I have never seen a cloaked ship at 10km. I have seen a few at 1-2 KM maximum and only in my science ship with sensors and whatnot at top skill levels.

In Nemesis...Picards ship was easy prey for the Evil Picard. At his(good Picard) disposal was a team of Romulans that were able to focus fire. Also at Picards disposal was the ability to fire in random directions w/o having a target and if there was a hit he was able to call all shots on the hit.

In the undiscovered country Kirk was able ultimately to fire at a cloaked ship tracing its GAS.


STO in its current form does not allow for players who are fighting cloaked ships to enjoy this level of countering as enjoyed by the LONE HEROES of Star Trek.

I stand by my ideas that cloaking is very powerful and unbalances the battlefield when implemented in its current form by Cryptic.

Other contributing factors include that this game wants to be fast paced and this deviates from the movies. Not many space battles in the movies or tv shows were so fast paced ..IMO this bewilders many people too as to how they died so quickly when all they have to refer to is the movies as a mainframe and that space battles took much longer.


Only 1 space battle in the movies , in my recollection, even comes close to the STO experience.

GRISSOM vs the BoP 1 shot and the scienjce vessel pops.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
12-15-2010, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post



THE CLOAK in its present form in STO is far more powerful that its counterparts in the movies.

In the movies cloaked ships were vulnerable. In the Search for Spock the cloaked ship was able to be seen (distorted) at in between 1-2 kellicams. Which was extreme end of their weapons. I will assume that this is the 10k range.

I have never seen a cloaked ship at 10km. I have seen a few at 1-2 KM maximum and only in my science ship with sensors and whatnot at top skill levels.

In Nemesis...Picards ship was easy prey for the Evil Picard. At his(good Picard) disposal was a team of Romulans that were able to focus fire. Also at Picards disposal was the ability to fire in random directions w/o having a target and if there was a hit he was able to call all shots on the hit.

In the undiscovered country Kirk was able ultimately to fire at a cloaked ship tracing its GAS.


STO in its current form does not allow for players who are fighting cloaked ships to enjoy this level of countering as enjoyed by the LONE HEROES of Star Trek.

I stand by my ideas that cloaking is very powerful and unbalances the battlefield when implemented in its current form by Cryptic.

Other contributing factors include that this game wants to be fast paced and this deviates from the movies. Not many space battles in the movies or tv shows were so fast paced ..IMO this bewilders many people too as to how they died so quickly when all they have to refer to is the movies as a mainframe and that space battles took much longer.


Only 1 space battle in the movies , in my recollection, even comes close to the STO experience.

GRISSOM vs the BoP 1 shot and the science vessel pops.

only the battle cloak is op is skilled hands, because you can escape with a speedburst and then cloak while having some hull buff running.


All other cloaks are fine, and its really just you having problems.


As far as cloak ambush goes: hit evasive maneuvers and veer away while they waste their buffs on you. you DO get a decent def bonus...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
12-15-2010, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
THE CLOAK in its present form in STO is far more powerful that its counterparts in the movies.

In the movies cloaked ships were vulnerable. In the Search for Spock the cloaked ship was able to be seen (distorted) at in between 1-2 kellicams. Which was extreme end of their weapons. I will assume that this is the 10k range.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kellicam

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cloak

At no point didn't cloak stop working under red alert, btw. As long as the cloak wasn't damaged, you could use it.

And Cloak can be a risk to its user, since there is about a 3-second window where you activate your cloak and are without shields, but still visible. Also, projectiles of all type follow you even after you are cloaked (which wouldn't happen in canon, unless in special cases like the modified torpedo used against Chang).

Cloak is certainly useful and powerful, but that doesn't mean its mere presence in the game is a problem.
My only real balance problem faction-wise is the fact that Raptors and Neg'Vars don't seem to pay any costs anymore for their cloak. The Neg'Var compares badly to the Galaxy Retrofit since it has _always_ good maneuverability and the same hull and shields as a non-separated Galaxy Retrofit.

But while that is an imbalance... It's not the real issue. The real issue is that the KDF faction consists of mostly PvP-focused players, while th Federtion faction consists mostly of PvE-focused players. And not only that. PvE focused players accustomed to single player experience.
At no point in PvE do you learn to look out for your team mates, since there are not any.

I know that some KDF Captains think on the other hand Federation ships are OP, but they really aren't. The reason why skilled Fed players rock in FvK is because they focus on your weaknesses. If you rely on cloak, naturally the Science Vessels and Captains will ruin your day. But the KDF is - or at least has been for a long time - shoehorned into the cloak-combat style. They didn't have the ships that work without cloak, or science vessels. Without the ability to change tactics, the enemy has an easier time adapting to you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
12-15-2010, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kellicam

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cloak

At no point didn't cloak stop working under red alert, btw. As long as the cloak wasn't damaged, you could use it.

And Cloak can be a risk to its user, since there is about a 3-second window where you activate your cloak and are without shields, but still visible. Also, projectiles of all type follow you even after you are cloaked (which wouldn't happen in canon, unless in special cases like the modified torpedo used against Chang).

Cloak is certainly useful and powerful, but that doesn't mean its mere presence in the game is a problem.
My only real balance problem faction-wise is the fact that Raptors and Neg'Vars don't seem to pay any costs anymore for their cloak. The Neg'Var compares badly to the Galaxy Retrofit since it has _always_ good maneuverability and the same hull and shields as a non-separated Galaxy Retrofit.

But while that is an imbalance... It's not the real issue. The real issue is that the KDF faction consists of mostly PvP-focused players, while th Federtion faction consists mostly of PvE-focused players. And not only that. PvE focused players accustomed to single player experience.
At no point in PvE do you learn to look out for your team mates, since there are not any.

I know that some KDF Captains think on the other hand Federation ships are OP, but they really aren't. The reason why skilled Fed players rock in FvK is because they focus on your weaknesses. If you rely on cloak, naturally the Science Vessels and Captains will ruin your day. But the KDF is - or at least has been for a long time - shoehorned into the cloak-combat style. They didn't have the ships that work without cloak, or science vessels. Without the ability to change tactics, the enemy has an easier time adapting to you.
Well said.

A good fed player can take me down even with battle cloak. Try asking someone like Hale or one of the other good fed players how to do it. One thing that seems to work well is torpedo Salvo which is deadly against a cloaked ship since a cloaked ship has no shields.

Hell so many Feds have gone science lately I have switched back to my Carrier. Its rock paper scissors. The only major imbalance is in player knowledge and skills. Thats not to say some powers could use a little tweaking but all in all the balance is pretty good.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
12-15-2010, 10:17 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
THE CLOAK in its present form in STO is far more powerful that its counterparts in the movies.
How so?

I cloak and my shields drop to zero and I can not be seen.
I decloak and appear from thin air, can't cloak again for 15 seconds and have no shields while my shield power regenerates slowly back up to my preset levels. I can speed up the process by using EPTS +TSS any other shield healing power.
If I have Battle cloak I can even cloak in battle and reposistion to abetter attck angle, though this can lead to one being killed by a torpedo or energy weapon strikes since at the moment of cloaking I will have no shields.
Sounds like the movies and TV shows to me.
The only difference being that in the shows the script sometimes let the Feds detect cloaking using one or more technologically explained ways. Mayb the feds need to search for cloaked vessels in combat more often and then the KDF will not be able to use it as well?

Quote:
In the movies cloaked ships were vulnerable. In the Search for Spock the cloaked ship was able to be seen (distorted) at in between 1-2 kellicams. Which was extreme end of their weapons. I will assume that this is the 10k range.
I was under the belief that the issues of KDF cloaking of the 23rd century where solved in the 24th century and cloaking no longer gives a ripple effect unless one is flying too fast at warp speed.

Quote:
I have never seen a cloaked ship at 10km. I have seen a few at 1-2 KM maximum and only in my science ship with sensors and whatnot at top skill levels.
Other science players and Nebula users have said that they can get hits as far out as 10-12km with maxed Aux power.

Scripted that way. In reality a fire while cloaked vessel like the scimitaur would have rolled the Enterprise, and just about every other ship in the quadrant except the Borg.

Kirk used new sensor technology to augment a torpedo to follow the CHang's plasma exhaust trail and hit it. Several players have discussed "anti-cloaking torpedoes" already, but no ideas have been set in stone.

Quote:
STO in its current form does not allow for players who are fighting cloaked ships to enjoy this level of countering as enjoyed by the LONE HEROES of Star Trek.
Pvp is not a LONE HEROES game.

Quote:
Other contributing factors include that this game wants to be fast paced and this deviates from the movies. Not many space battles in the movies or tv shows were so fast paced ..IMO this bewilders many people too as to how they died so quickly when all they have to refer to is the movies as a mainframe and that space battles took much longer.
I can see this being a factor in one's perception of how PvP is unbalanced but a slower paced game may be too slwo and have an undesired effect on its population.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
12-15-2010, 10:18 AM
[quote=MustrumRidcully;3226579]
Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
.
I did not write that quote and my name is attached to it wrongfully in your post. If you hit the orange zigs it takes a person to my post no garravesh's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
12-15-2010, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
only the battle cloak is op is skilled hands, because you can escape with a speedburst and then cloak while having some hull buff running.


All other cloaks are fine, and its really just you having problems.


As far as cloak ambush goes: hit evasive maneuvers and veer away while they waste their buffs on you. you DO get a decent def bonus...

No it really is not just ME having problems.


Befor you try to act witty and try to attack my position you really must read earlier into the topic where i posted my thoughts as to the decided lack of Fed pvpers due to the solo mentality. As the topic progressed I focused more on the cloaking aspect of the Klingons and less on the AGREED idea that Feds are lacking in pvp mentality as opposed to the klingons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
12-15-2010, 10:34 AM
Heres a few hints on how to handle cloaked vessels.

1. The higher your Aux power the better chance of detecting stealth.

2. AOE damage powers can kill cloaked vessels very quickly.

3. Learn to change power setting so you can switch between looking and killing.

4. Team up and focus fire, some teams can kill my bop so fast I don't even want to uncloak because it means insta death.

5. Learn to play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
12-15-2010, 10:45 AM
Yeah those are all good ideas...


Just wish the masses(most often fed players) would learn them.



It is not fun loosing over and over for no fault of your own.....that sounds a little self righteous but it is the truth. I went into PVP last night with 3 cruisers. I was in my sci vessel. They all folded like a house of cards within 15 seconds of each other......



Running a sci vessel at 125 aux at all time with the remaining power at shields I have NEVER seen a vessel cloaked at more then 2 k or so.. I am sure i have never seen one past 10k...

We ran tests in 1v1 pvp ( me and a friend) I maxed on aux and sensor scan yadda yadda and he cloaked at exactly 13k and then 10 k and then 7 k I never saw him once. There has to be other contributing factors.
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