Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 131
12-15-2010, 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
I assume they were rebalanced to allow the defiant & gal-x to exist. (I wasn't here for that)

AFAIK:
Defiant: (supposedly) 5% better shields, better turn rate.
Raptor: 10% more hull, one more eng console.

The obvious problem is that eventually a turn rate console will exist that's superior to the turn rate difference - but from testing, it doesn't exist yet.
The Raptor/Defiant thing happened when the game changed to Cruisers Online (to use one of those nice hyperbolic terms the community came up with), and the Neg'Var change came with the Vor'Cha Retrofit.

It seems to me that they didn't want the Vor'Cha to have even less hull then the Neg'Var then had. Still, they didn't have to go all the way.

I also forgot one other ship that I don't think is accurately balanced - the Excelsior Retrofit. It should pay for its turn rate with blood, err hit points. Not much, but something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 132
12-16-2010, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The Raptor/Defiant thing happened when the game changed to Cruisers Online (to use one of those nice hyperbolic terms the community came up with), and the Neg'Var change came with the Vor'Cha Retrofit.

It seems to me that they didn't want the Vor'Cha to have even less hull then the Neg'Var then had. Still, they didn't have to go all the way.
I assume the underlying problem is that STO (like the majority of MMOs) is primarily a PvE game... and in STO PvE, cloaking is practically worthless.

-> For the defiant to be a comparable PvE ship to the fleet escort it can't really take a penalty for it's cloaking ability. Then, for PvP to be balanced, the raptor can't be weaker than the defiant... I assume the same thinking went into the Neg'Var balance - it was paying a PvE penalty for a PvP-only ability?

Cloaking/stealth has always been difficult to balance, and I haven't really got a clue how it should be balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I also forgot one other ship that I don't think is accurately balanced - the Excelsior Retrofit. It should pay for its turn rate with blood, err hit points. Not much, but something.
I've heard it's a great ship - I guess I need to level a fed to work out what all their ships do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 133
12-16-2010, 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
I assume the underlying problem is that STO (like the majority of MMOs) is primarily a PvE game... and in STO PvE, cloaking is practically worthless.

-> For the defiant to be a comparable PvE ship to the fleet escort it can't really take a penalty for it's cloaking ability. Then, for PvP to be balanced, the raptor can't be weaker than the defiant... I assume the same thinking went into the Neg'Var balance - it was paying a PvE penalty for a PvP-only ability?

Cloaking/stealth has always been difficult to balance, and I haven't really got a clue how it should be balanced.



I've heard it's a great ship - I guess I need to level a fed to work out what all their ships do.
Its a brilliant ship..

As for cloaking being worthless in PvE.. Tell that to the Borg stuff I destroy in Ker'rat.. Sure.. I could just fight my way through the Borg ships, but its far more effective to sneak through their lines.. It almost feel like Im some sort of spec-forces soldier
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 134
12-16-2010, 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The Raptor/Defiant thing happened when the game changed to Cruisers Online (to use one of those nice hyperbolic terms the community came up with), and the Neg'Var change came with the Vor'Cha Retrofit.

It seems to me that they didn't want the Vor'Cha to have even less hull then the Neg'Var then had. Still, they didn't have to go all the way.

I also forgot one other ship that I don't think is accurately balanced - the Excelsior Retrofit. It should pay for its turn rate with blood, err hit points. Not much, but something.
It allready pay a hefty price in the LtC Eng slot.. Considering those slots are for the bread and butter skills of Cruisers, Im not sure its fair to punish it further..

Ive fought both in it, and against it.. Its nowhere near as durable as any other cruiser.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 135
12-16-2010, 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
It allready pay a hefty price in the LtC Eng slot.. Considering those slots are for the bread and butter skills of Cruisers, Im not sure its fair to punish it further..

Ive fought both in it, and against it.. Its nowhere near as durable as any other cruiser.
Of course, it didn't get any bonus BO slots. Maybe it is actually "fair" because maybe a hidden element of tactical BOs lots is a higher maneuverability. That kinda makes sense to me.

I should dig up the post where I created a type of "ship design" system that would come close (but not identical) to the existing ships... But it wasn't in a thread I started and the thread was closed for other reasons, so I probably won't find it again and have to figure out if I still have the original written down somewhere.

The system was basically that you picked a primary and a secondary role for a ship and at tier 5 also a tertiary role, and these role would determine what your BO slots would be and the general stats, based on some base statistics by tier.

Going from Memory:

Engineering:
Primary Role: +25 % Hull, +5 to all power levels, Turn Rate 6
Secondary Role: +15 % Hull
Tertiary Role: +5 % Hull

Tactical:
Primary Role: -15 % Shields, +15 to Weapon Power, Turn Rate 15
Secondary Role: +4 Turn Rate
Tertiary Role: +2 Turn Rate

Science:
Primary Role: +25 % Shields, -15 % Hull, +15 Aux, Turn Rate 10
Secondary Role: +10 % Shields, +1 Turn Rate
Tertiary Role: +5 % Shields

An Intrepid would be Science Primary, Secondary and Tertiary, leading to a turn rate of 11, -25 % Hul, +40 % Shields, +15 Aux.
A Recon would be Science Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Tactical, leading to a turn rate of 13, -25 % Hull, +35 % Shields, +5 Aux.
A Sovereign would be Engineering Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Tactical,leading to a turn rate of 8, +40 % Hull, and +5 to all power levels.
A Star Cruiser would be Engineering Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Science, leading to a turn rate of 6, +40 % Hull, +10 Shields, +5 to all power levels.

And so on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 136
12-16-2010, 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Of course, it didn't get any bonus BO slots. Maybe it is actually "fair" because maybe a hidden element of tactical BOs lots is a higher maneuverability. That kinda makes sense to me.

I should dig up the post where I created a type of "ship design" system that would come close (but not identical) to the existing ships... But it wasn't in a thread I started and the thread was closed for other reasons, so I probably won't find it again and have to figure out if I still have the original written down somewhere.

The system was basically that you picked a primary and a secondary role for a ship and at tier 5 also a tertiary role, and these role would determine what your BO slots would be and the general stats, based on some base statistics by tier.

Going from Memory:

Engineering:
Primary Role: +25 % Hull, +5 to all power levels, Turn Rate 6
Secondary Role: +15 % Hull
Tertiary Role: +5 % Hull

Tactical:
Primary Role: -15 % Shields, +15 to Weapon Power, Turn Rate 15
Secondary Role: +4 Turn Rate
Tertiary Role: +2 Turn Rate

Science:
Primary Role: +25 % Shields, -15 % Hull, +15 Aux, Turn Rate 10
Secondary Role: +10 % Shields, +1 Turn Rate
Tertiary Role: +5 % Shields

An Intrepid would be Science Primary, Secondary and Tertiary, leading to a turn rate of 11, -25 % Hul, +40 % Shields, +15 Aux.
A Recon would be Science Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Tactical, leading to a turn rate of 13, -25 % Hull, +35 % Shields, +5 Aux.
A Sovereign would be Engineering Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Tactical,leading to a turn rate of 8, +40 % Hull, and +5 to all power levels.
A Star Cruiser would be Engineering Primary and Secondary and Tertiary Science, leading to a turn rate of 6, +40 % Hull, +10 Shields, +5 to all power levels.

And so on.
Yeah, I was just going from personal experiences with cruisers, in which the absolutely most important engineering skills all are located in the LtC slot (ET3, EP2x 3) - EP2W3 is important for 8-beamboats, ET3 is for healer etc.. The difference between the tactical skills isnt *that* different, which is why the AC and the Excelsior is so similar in performance (with a small advantage to the AC, despite the LtC Tactical) - The only major advantage of the Excelsior is the ability to slot Omega1 IMO, which is nice I guess. (I ran FAW3, BOL1, Beta1 with alt BOs for BOL3 FAW1 APB1)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 137
12-16-2010, 02:52 AM
Well, I don't really think that any imbalances the Excelsior is big, if it even exists. Not after the RSP nerf at least. As long as we were playing RSP online ( :p) ), the fact that it didn't have a lt.Cmdr slot was not felt by many. Without a 15-second green diaper, the downgrade from a potential Engineering Team 3 or EPtS 3 to an ET1 or EptS1 is actually notable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 138
12-16-2010, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
As for cloaking being worthless in PvE.. Tell that to the Borg stuff I destroy in Ker'rat.. Sure.. I could just fight my way through the Borg ships, but its far more effective to sneak through their lines.. It almost feel like Im some sort of spec-forces soldier
Ah, but Ker'rat is PvP .

---

In my continuing quest for PvP-balance understanding..
Since Friday:
- I lost 1 match on Saturday, idiot klingons that did not understand the concept of 'flags' .
- I lost 1 match last night to an insanely good fleet pre-made. Foreign sounding name, with (I think) German players who spoke very good english.... We nearly killed one ship!
- I lost another 2 matches last night to teams that worked together, and had one other good, close battle that we won.

Beyond that, I think every other match has been a Klingon victory... including some very good opponents.

Footnote: there are specific ships that I am "not unusually" 1/2-shotting. If that ever happens to you, please take a look at your build - you've done something terribly wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 139
12-16-2010, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
Ah, but Ker'rat is PvP .

---

In my continuing quest for PvP-balance understanding..
Since Friday:
- I lost 1 match on Saturday, idiot klingons that did not understand the concept of 'flags' .
- I lost 1 match last night to an insanely good fleet pre-made. Foreign sounding name, with (I think) German players who spoke very good english.... We nearly killed one ship!
- I lost another 2 matches last night to teams that worked together, and had one other good, close battle that we won.

Beyond that, I think every other match has been a Klingon victory... including some very good opponents.

Footnote: there are specific ships that I am "not unusually" 1/2-shotting. If that ever happens to you, please take a look at your build - you've done something terribly wrong.
PvPvE actually.. I know its a PvP zone for most Klingons, and a PvE zone for most Feds.

I was talking about cloaking, then scan the nodes when youre in position, recloak and continue.. Same goes for the hulks, cloak, move into position (using structures to shield you from cubes), unleash a hellish alpha and be on your way to the next before youre caught..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 140
12-16-2010, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
PvPvE actually.. I know its a PvP zone for most Klingons, and a PvE zone for most Feds.

I was talking about cloaking, then scan the nodes when youre in position, recloak and continue.. Same goes for the hulks, cloak, move into position (using structures to shield you from cubes), unleash a hellish alpha and be on your way to the next before youre caught..
I do this often as to not be an easy target for wandering klings..........getting tied up by PVE enemies just so a PVP enemy can take advantage is not logical.
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