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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
12-19-2010, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remianen View Post
I would agree with this only because, in my experience from talking to many people (fleet recruiters/members and otherwise) that there are many people who play this game who aren't well versed in raiding, in general. Many of the lessons taught by raiding in other games are easily applicable here. The specific differences could be taught via a quick tutorial but that's assuming the player is familiar with raiding in general. If they're not, a tutorial's not going to do it but a full scale raid scenario (like Leviathan suggests) would. Problem is, there's a cost (even if it's only an opportunity cost) to implementing that.
This is really the core of the problem. The classes in STO have no predefined role. Tactical can dps or tank. Sci or Engineering can both do something akin to healing. Engineering can tank. Sci can dps. Not having cookie-cutter classes is a positive thing...until you get to content like STF's. There is nothing in this game whatsoever that teaches you how to use your abilities as part of a team. You reach max level solo. Even if you group, its just two people killing twice as many mobs, you aren't using group tactics.

Since there's no preparation for 5-manning in this game, people tend to import what they've learned from other games: The Tank, Healer, 3 dps model for a 5-man. So then they struggle to figure out who's what, and find that nobody's in game abilities fit any of these roles neatly.

Basically, Cryptic has given us versatile, role-less classes (a good thing) and then asked us to take them into a WoW-style 5-man (in this case, a bad thing). So the key to redesigning STFs is two-fold. 1) Design them around the classes and player abilities in this game. 2) Put grouping experiences throughout the levelling path that allow people to learn how to coordinate their abilities with a group on their way to the STFs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remianen View Post
You say that as if people who prefer the solo path are somehow deviant in doing so. If the developers agreed with you, they would make teaming mandatory (if not overtly, then definitely 'functionally'). It's not like it hasn't been done before (*cough*EverQuest*cough*). While I would agree that it seems daft to complain about content designed for groups when 99% of the game is soloable, I can't agree with the insinuation that choosing not to be saddled by other people's issues (or to saddle them with your own, whatever the case may be) somehow makes you an undesirable. 'Loner' doesn't tend to have a positive connotation, y'see (much like 'drifter'). I'm guilded in nearly every MMO I play, except this one and a few of the f2p ones. Of course, what you say isn't true either. I know of several people who can do raids all by themselves (multiboxing). So your 'all of the 300+ MMOs' statement is false.
You realize that you've just spent this whole paragraph arguing that Massively Multiplayer games are not designed to be Massively Multiplayer?

If all you want to do is solo, this is the wrong type of game. The Armada series might be better for you, if you want some solo space combat. Or Elite Force if you prefer ground. The whole premise of a Star Trek MMO, what makes it different than those other games, is that you're playing in a shared, persistant Star Trek universe with thousands of other like-minded players. MMOs are not designed around single player experience. So yes, someone who wants to play an MMO as a single player game is an exception, whether you want to call them 'weird' or some other more friendly adjective like 'special'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
12-19-2010, 03:03 PM
[quote=Remianen;3234387Again Leviathan, who's gonna pay for it? Do you expect the playerbase as a whole to forgo any content that's broad in appeal, so they can use those resources to create your starter raid(s)? Remember, creating a raid isn't just a matter of design. You need coding and perhaps art (or people will whine about the raid looking like something else). So many of the departments you'd need to create new content that appeals to all players, would be tasked with helping to create this raid that appeals to....who, exactly?.[/QUOTE]

Hardly anyone is paying for the existing STFs or any new ones as-is. My basic analogy, keeping in mind this is a much more casual game:

Raids in Vanilla WoW were generally too hardcore for the majority of their playerbase, particularly the later ones.

Heroic dungeons in WoW, particularly WotLK, were generally very broad in appeal and led to players having an almost parallel progression path to raids, albeit a more time consuming one. (Unfortunately, the number of classes did play into this and if you were DPS with low utility for the kinds of tricks one of these demanded, you were out in the cold in TBC.)

Blizzard realized that they were hoarding the really great lore by having major storyline events in raids. So, after Illidan died in a raid few people played and they realized that less than 5% of players were at endgame (much less than 5% in some cases), they killed Kael'thas, a major character, in a fairly accessible 5 person dungeon. They also took their least played raid and retooled it as an introductory raid, to "pay for it", as you put it.

In WotLK, they were very conscious of the risk of content being hoarded by a small group of players (at least up until the end, where they saved to hardcore instincts and created content for less than 5% of players) and they peppered the whole expansion with the big villain. One in every ten quests featured the villain and casual players got to face him in a non-raid 5 person gimmick encounter.

I post this because there is a back and forth that dungeon designers go through in creating STF-style content... and STFs are really halfway between a really annoying Heroic Dungeon (the non-WotLK variety where you're forced to play a certain way and you can't outgear the encounter as a casual player) and a Raid. And for STO's playerbase, there is no hook into this gameplay style.

You have content that 5% of the playerbase will see at the end of the STFs. You have content that I'd wager less than 20% of players will complete just with Infected.

That's not too different from the cycle of a WoW expansion except that we have fewer players, overall, and no introduction to that style of gameplay. Even if less than 5% in WoW have downed the Lich King, a LOT of players at least set foot in Icecrown Citadel. And they were trained to by the whole expansion, by the nature of dungeons and raids in that game. And looking at their last expansion, I'd betcha half the serious players downed Naxx.

Here, it's just like Bambi vs. Godzilla. Players have no place where they can learn STFs by succeeding rather than learning by failing. As a result, all STF content development is wasted and no STF CAN "pay for itself" as you put it. Furthermore, there's no storyline incentive because you don't even know who Manus or the STF characters are unless you're an STF player, making them seem even more detached from the game.

I guarantee you if you do a weekly series with Rebecca Simmons as an ally as a prequel to Infected, that will tilt your numbers up just a bit in terms of people trying Infected. The storyside is one aspect.

But the main aspect, again, is that there is no place for teams to meet, say, "I like this style of gameplay. I can do this! I'm ready to try something harder!" Without affirmations, players give up.

I think this is a regular problem with STO. Leveling to Vice Admiral IS fast but most people I recruit (and going by the Captain's Database, most people in general), give up before hitting Commander because they aren't patted on the back enough fast enough with quick leveling in the early levels (which other games have). It doesn't matter that the later ranks fly by and most people at the cap seem to feel the game was "too short".

Most players get bored with the rate of leveling at the low levels. You could totally tweak that to make higher ranks last longer and lower ranks fly by. That might even mean lengthening the overall leveling process but those first 10-20 levels don't give a lot of people the affirmation needed to continue.

You HAVE TO flatter new players. Shower people new to a mechanic with affirmation, accomplishments that are easy as slicing through butter, basically throw them a parade just for paying a subscription fee and trying something out... And only once they like something to you slowly start ramping up the difficulty. You have to build up their appetite before you feed them challenge.

And you absolutely should have those challenges waiting but only at the end of a flattery-filled, self-esteem boosting appetizer course that actually builds a community rather than asking them to assemble themselves.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
12-19-2010, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Yup you got me I scanned over your post. Still if you can get five people to adopt the game in real life you have the skills to get folk to help you in game. This thread seems to attest to that. My post was not an attack, instead it was a suggestion. I have seen you in game chat a couple times. Though I am in another time zone I would be happy to help. Next time I see you in chat I will shoot you a friend invite. I hang in TSS chat and on the KDFassistance channel, you know if you happen to swing Kling. To be honest Thlaylie it seems that most everyone on this thread wants to see you succeed.

Swing Kling... So should make a T-Shirt about that.
I have had good times during the STFs I've tried to PUG with others.

As it is now Infected is not finishable with the PUG groups I've been with.

We all have a good time until the monotony of repeated mobs eventually wears us all down and people start to drop out.

What Cryptic calls "Challenging" I call "Unimaginative."

It's easy to make things challenging by making the mobs do things they don't normally do in game. It is very obviously tacky to have the Borg literally running after people instead of their normal shuffle. Is it not bad enough that they constantly beam in 2 protodrones per Borg, heal constantly AND use holds on people?

I realize my lack of communication or at least forum communication skills has turned some against me, but like I stated before, everyone I encounter in game has found me to be a nice guy. I try my hardest when PUGing and understand when people need to bail.

The Space parts of STFs totally rock and there are no non game canon alterations there.

Maybe we should get to choose how we finish an STF by space or by ground? I think you will find most people prefer space.

Cool, I have never refused a friend invite and look forward to receiving it. Maybe you will help me beat this newer Infected some day. I played it back when it 1rst came out and looking at the vid and experiencing the running mobs it has changed a lot, but I will keep trying!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
12-19-2010, 03:16 PM
To sum it all off and put it in Trip Tucker terms:

You've got a farmer who's built a tall fence with no door and a pig on the wrong side of it. Sometimes, you gotta grease up that pig to get it through the boards and back where you want it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
12-19-2010, 04:43 PM
well i can sum it up in these terms ive not done an STF since attempting terradrome the previous ones i had done, Infected and Cure were both incredibly not fun that i chose not to do any others.

After the zerg of trash mobs on terradrome i vowed i wouldnt even attempt any more STFS unless cryptic decided to re-examine them.

and now mr Gozer has stated that he will not look at the stfs from my way of thinking sticking his fingers in his ears and going "LALALALALAL" very loudly till you go away.

and although i have my lifetime subscription i have done just that i pop back for the episodes which are fun but at the end of the day the Fleet missions are not fun they are just not fun.

i cant keep saying that enough THEY ARE NOT FUN.

Now like all other mmos on the market the unique content will go tothose people who are prepared to invest 10+ hours raiding a dungeon to get it. Thats still not fun in my book that becomes a job and jobs are notoriously not fun.

I wish they would fix the fleets but they wont they ahve decided that fighting through starship trooper quantities of aliens is justifiable as content.

well good for them but consider that if i had paid my subscription monthly i wouldnt be paying now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
12-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awarkle View Post
well i can sum it up in these terms ive not done an STF since attempting terradrome the previous ones i had done, Infected and Cure were both incredibly not fun that i chose not to do any others.

After the zerg of trash mobs on terradrome i vowed i wouldnt even attempt any more STFS unless cryptic decided to re-examine them.

and now mr Gozer has stated that he will not look at the stfs from my way of thinking sticking his fingers in his ears and going "LALALALALAL" very loudly till you go away.

and although i have my lifetime subscription i have done just that i pop back for the episodes which are fun but at the end of the day the Fleet missions are not fun they are just not fun.

i cant keep saying that enough THEY ARE NOT FUN.

Now like all other mmos on the market the unique content will go tothose people who are prepared to invest 10+ hours raiding a dungeon to get it. Thats still not fun in my book that becomes a job and jobs are notoriously not fun.

I wish they would fix the fleets but they wont they ahve decided that fighting through starship trooper quantities of aliens is justifiable as content.

well good for them but consider that if i had paid my subscription monthly i wouldnt be paying now.

If you haven't finished the Cure, then you wouldn't know that Terradome has no impacting on getting KA. It is odd that it is a stand alone STF which does not effect anything. It is also bugged and hence the reason no one tries to run the missions currently. Dstahl mentioned a month or so ago, the STF's will not change. However, at some point they will return to them and tweak on them some. Right now, they are adding new game content into the game, which I for one enjoy more. The STF's (except terradome) are completeable and I think the Dev's should continue adding more content rather then go to fix them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
12-20-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm going to go ahead and close this thread down now before it catches on literal fire, which would be bad for our servers.

On the topic at hand:

STFs are meant to be very difficult. It takes a full, dedicated, team of people working together in order to defeat one of these scenarios, and that's how we intend for them to be. Just like some people like solo content, and other people like to casually group with friends, or random people they've just met, some people want content that is incredibly challenging, and nigh on impossible without a very strong group of people working together.

We feel that players who can complete such difficult missions deserve a suitable reward. We also understand that other players will want similar rewards for doing other types of content.

We've just introduced item sets into STO, I assure you, we are not done making them yet. Currently there is a set available for people who do STFs, and another for those who work at crafting. This means that everyone should be able to earn one of the two sets.

However, if you want the Borg set, you're going to need to do the STFs. Just like if you want the Aegis set, you're going to need to do some crafting.

Both of these sets are available to everyone in-game. You all have the opportunity to earn them.

That's really all there is to this argument.

Thanks,

Stormshade
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