Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 need carriers on federation
12-27-2010, 06:43 AM
ehm to our dear cryptic i know you are not whant to do this but give the federation som *God Dam carriers the pvp fights are very much un.balancet with carriers on kilngon side i know they have 4 types of ships that can launch ships and fighter of som sort id say that is very much not good for game play in pvp hey it 30 years after nemeise gota say that federation have gotten som carriers in that time but no no no we dont whant to give federation carriers no no wake up cryptic im begining to see alot of mmo where this type of stuffe happens, it begining to sad to see how the game devopler dont see thous problems,

so this is a wake-up call to cryptic you ever played a pvp fight againsdt som of the players to see how much over power the klingon are on as general classes, all you do is make new stuff not see the bad balance.

with regard and angry player
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
12-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Since you probably weren't here for the Carrier Threads that cropped up and down two months ago, this is what StormShade, our community rep, has posted about the idea of Fed Carriers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
We've stated this a couple of times in the past. We don't currently have any plans to add a carrier type vessel to Starfleet.

This doesn't mean that it will never happen, however, right now, it's not something on our radar.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
...We don't consider carriers to be OP. There are many skills and abilities which work quite well to counter their abilities. If you honestly believe that you should be able to face roll your keyboard and still win at PvP regardless of what your opponent's or your own build and or team is made up of, to quote myself:

"It's time to wake up and smell the disruptor burns."

PvP is, was, and will remain a game of skill, strategy, and teamwork. Change your strategy up, try a different build, continue to hone your PvP skills...
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Default
For every advantage the Klingon Player has, the Federation Player has a counter available to them.

Battle cloak?

No problem. Science Officers have many innate abilities meant to help detect, or even force Klingons out of cloak, such as sensor scan.

Tachyon Detection Grid can help your entire team detect cloaked vessels.

Plus, simply running higher AUX setting will help anyone to detect a cloaked vessel.

Mines, and other AOE abilities such as Torpedo Spread, CPB, EWP, and others will hit a cloaked vessel and do some damage to them without even being able to target them.

Carriers?

As has been mentioned many times, Beam Array: Fire at Will, Cannon: Scatter Volley, Eject Warp Plasma, and others are all great abilities to limit a carriers effectiveness.

Klingons are far away from being the unstoppable powerhouse that many of you seem to think they are. I know this because I play a Klingon, and I can tell you I lose more matches than I win.

If you're having trouble facing off against Klingons, try asking a Klingon how to beat them. Almost every single one of them will tell you what your team needs to do in order to counter anything they do. However, PvP is a team based game.

If you actually expect to run into a PvP match, not work with your teammates, and still be able to faceroll your keyboard for the win, it's time to wake up and smell the disruptor burns.

It's almost always going to be the better organized team that wins. Space combat in STO is a very tactical game. It requires strategy, skill, and a knowledge of how different skills interact.

Focus your teams fire on one opponent. If that one opponent isn't going down, figure out why, and eliminate the problem.

If your team doesn't have someone providing support to the rest of the team, why not?

If you're a team of 5 escorts and can't take down a couple of carriers, there's a problem, and I bet you're not focusing your firepower.

If you're a team of 5 Cruisers and can't keep your team alive, maybe one or two of you needs to be doing some support?

5 Science vessels? You guys better be rocking some serious debuffs, as well as supporting each other if you want to win.

Got 5 BoPs together in a match? If you're not focus firing and using hit and run tactics, my bet is on the Feds.

Every power in this game has a counter. Almost everyone in the PvP Community wants to help you learn how to succeed in PvP. That means they'll tell you their tips and tricks, including what works to stop what they do. Try listening to what they have to say, and take their position into account. Don't just assume that since the other team has battle cloak
(Or Carriers -Katic) that this one ability is why you keep losing.

I'm telling you right now, cloak, and battle cloak have their uses. But if your entire team isn't working together, and know how to use that ability, it becomes a hindrance, not an advantage.

Same thing with the carrier swarm.

Both of these can also be easily countered by readily available skills as well.

Thanks,

Stormshade
What's more, carriers are a different animal than anything else in PvP or PvE.

To put it simply, it's an arms race.

Each faction gets new ships with new abilities, and in an arms race, there's two ways to counter new technology, either you develop new technology yourself, or, you develop tactics to counter the new threat.

Carriers are a tech that the devs, and many of the most experienced PvPers, feel is best countered by new tactics, not new technology.

Now, I do think we need something of a refinement to the targeting system to deal with the swarms of pets Carriers can spawn, but that's a UI change, and adding in Fed pet swarms would only worsen the problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
12-27-2010, 01:06 PM
Have a cruiser chain FAW. You wont see fighters at all. Any Fed cruiser driver worth their salt ought to have a BO with FAW, maybe not in a seat, but in there somewhere to rotate in if there are carriers. Without the fighters, a carrier is like a fat guy too winded from eating burger king to do anything more than fart on you (unless you're squishy, then you could still have problems...but that's what happens when you're squishy).

I normally only play Klingon in PvP, but took my Fed into a match in her Sovereign, I saw first hand how easy it is to lock down a carrier. The carrier's own damage potential isn't too frightening, so the only real threat is from their science abilities, but those are more debilitating than dangerous. Certainly not debilitating enough to prevent you from keeping up the suppressive fire till your team mates show up. Then just pop it and move on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
12-28-2010, 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asibar View Post
ehm to our dear cryptic i know you are not whant to do this but give the federation som *God Dam carriers the pvp fights are very much un.balancet with carriers on kilngon side i know they have 4 types of ships that can launch ships and fighter of som sort id say that is very much not good for game play in pvp hey it 30 years after nemeise gota say that federation have gotten som carriers in that time but no no no we dont whant to give federation carriers no no wake up cryptic im begining to see alot of mmo where this type of stuffe happens, it begining to sad to see how the game devopler dont see thous problems,

so this is a wake-up call to cryptic you ever played a pvp fight againsdt som of the players to see how much over power the klingon are on as general classes, all you do is make new stuff not see the bad balance.

with regard and angry player
I think Katic and Thunder Child covered the 'Carrier are op!' well enough, but there are some other parts of your post I'd like to address. First off you say there are 4 ships on the KDF side that can launch "ships and fighter of som sort id say that is very much not good for game play". Why? If KDF had 4 ships that could turn blue with purple stripes on command, would that not be good for game play? Ships being able to do -something- that another side cannot is not automatically bad, the bad part comes if it's unbalancing. And for that I'd like to refer to Katic's post, which covered it well.

Also a minor nitpick, KDF only has 2 Carriers. The other two ships that launch things kinda suck at doing so. The Patrol Cruiser can once ever 3 minutes summon 6 fighters that can be taken down in seconds. And the hull repair platforms from the Gorn ship aren't shielded and so are also likely to be taken down very easily. (And since they hover around KDF ships, you now have an exploding thing close to your hull, and you suffer damage from it. Those hull healing drones very quickly turn to little mines that damage the KDF)

Also, technically, the Federation already has a type of Carrier. According to the people who designed the Akira class it was meant to be an assault vessel/carrier. In the massive star ship battles in DS9 where you see Federation fighters it's my assumption that they were launched from the Akira ships that were also seen in the fleet, though it's never explicitly stated in the shows. However in STO the Akira has had it's Carrier function ignored (either by Cryptic's lack of knowing what it was, or on purpose).

Another note is that fighter craft tend to be destroyed....really...easily. And the Federation is not in the habit of throwing lives away like that. The KDF however has many people from their culture who value close combat, direct fighting. And when they can't find eager warriors, I've no doubt they will start pressing 'volunteers' into server from worlds they hold claim over to further their war efforts. The Federation wouldn't go to the same lengths.
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Posts: 120
# 5
12-29-2010, 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Also, technically, the Federation already has a type of Carrier. According to the people who designed the Akira class it was meant to be an assault vessel/carrier. In the massive star ship battles in DS9 where you see Federation fighters it's my assumption that they were launched from the Akira ships that were also seen in the fleet, though it's never explicitly stated in the shows. However in STO the Akira has had it's Carrier function ignored (either by Cryptic's lack of knowing what it was, or on purpose). .
Agreed.
In canon, there was never ever a single hint that the Federation has a carrier ship. The only circumstance where a carrier ship could have been involved was the battle at "sacrifice of angels" if i recall correctly, where sisko orders some fighter wings to distract some cardassian cruisers. These fighter wings however could have been easily startet from several Galaxy classes. (sisko even spoke about "galaxy wings" which indicates that there where several galaxy class starships present at that day.)
Apropos Fighter wings, did anyone notice how easily they where destroyed?
So i don't think that a carrier would be very efficient in the Star trek universe, such a vessel must have startet several hundreds of fighters to accomplish something. (Those resources could easyly be used to produce some Defiant class ships, which is sure to do the same job better and everyone has a better chance to come home alive)
So no real need to build a carrier at all.
(Such a ship must have been several time bigger than a galaxy class, so the Akira is disqualified anyway IMHO)

Thank you for reading.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
12-29-2010, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asibar View Post

I'm really not very good at PVP.
Fixed it for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
12-29-2010, 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
The only circumstance where a carrier ship could have been involved was the battle at "sacrifice of angels" if i recall correctly, where sisko orders some fighter wings to distract some cardassian cruisers. These fighter wings however could have been easily startet from several Galaxy classes.
Actually, the Peregrine couriers never docked at anything - we get to see the fleet departing the starbase as well as arriving at its destination, with the fighters being in formation the whole time. After all, being (refitted) courier ships, they are capable of independent warp travel, and have been described as "lightly armed shuttlecraft" before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Also, technically, the Federation already has a type of Carrier. According to the people who designed the Akira class it was meant to be an assault vessel/carrier.
No, the only one who ever wanted that ship to be a carrier was its original designer, but the idea got rejected by the studio. He also wanted the Akira to be a 400 meter jack-of-all-trades gunship with 15 torpedo launchers - make of that what you will. In the end, the Akira ended up being in the shows as a 160 meter frigate. Which, imo, is much too small for a carrier - and consequently we haven't seen any fighters in First Contact (where the ship appeared first) either. The Federation did not even have real fighters back then, the Peregrines were civilian vessels used by Starfleet Academy to train new cadets in shuttle flight ... and used solely in Operation Return because it was an "all or nothing" style of battle. Would the Dominion have managed to bring its reinforcements through the wormhole, the Federation would have effectively lost the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Another note is that fighter craft tend to be destroyed....really...easily. And the Federation is not in the habit of throwing lives away like that. The KDF however has many people from their culture who value close combat, direct fighting. And when they can't find eager warriors, I've no doubt they will start pressing 'volunteers' into server from worlds they hold claim over to further their war efforts. The Federation wouldn't go to the same lengths.
Very, very true. Another player also had the idea that warriors of dubious Houses (Houses that got beaten and absorbed by another House, or those that suffered discommendation) might be able to cleanse their dishonor by enrolling as fighter pilots, which does sound somewhat suitable. I suppose a comparison to the Japanese Kamikaze corps isn't too far off, given the short lifespan of fighters in the Trek universe.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
12-29-2010, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
No, the only one who ever wanted that ship to be a carrier was its original designer, but the idea got rejected by the studio. He also wanted the Akira to be a 400 meter jack-of-all-trades gunship with 15 torpedo launchers - make of that what you will. In the end, the Akira ended up being in the shows as a 160 meter frigate. Which, imo, is much too small for a carrier - and consequently we haven't seen any fighters in First Contact (where the ship appeared first) either. The Federation did not even have real fighters back then, the Peregrines were civilian vessels used by Starfleet Academy to train new cadets in shuttle flight ... and used solely in Operation Return because it was an "all or nothing" style of battle. Would the Dominion have managed to bring its reinforcements through the wormhole, the Federation would have effectively lost the war.
Ok, you're right, I mistook the designer's wishes for something that made it further then a flight of his fancy.
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# 9
12-29-2010, 10:48 AM
Oh, god. Not another "give the Feds a carrier naow!" thread. First off, the search function is your friend. There's already a ton of threads arguing both for and against this thing.

With that out of the way, as has been stated on numerous occasions, the Feds ain't getting a carrier. Someone above was even nice enough to quote Stormshade. The carriers aren't the be-all-end-all of ship design. The fighters can be easily handled by a competent group of players and the only reason that the KDF wins so much is because they are able to coordinate better than the Feds. I've seen both sides win matches.

My biggest problem with seeing carriers on both sides isn't due to the flawed thinking that one single ship type constantly wins PvP matches. Hell, if that was all it was about, then you could have the damn things. It's about faction uniqueness. The Federation has its signature stuff and the KDF has its own unique feel. To want to homogenize the factions by giving one side everything the other has it makes the game dull and unenjoyable.

So, yeah. No carriers coming your way and to constantly beg and whine for it makes them even less likely to put them in the game.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
12-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Armstrong View Post
My biggest problem with seeing carriers on both sides isn't due to the flawed thinking that one single ship type constantly wins PvP matches. Hell, if that was all it was about, then you could have the damn things. It's about faction uniqueness. The Federation has its signature stuff and the KDF has its own unique feel. To want to homogenize the factions by giving one side everything the other has it makes the game dull and unenjoyable.

So, yeah. No carriers coming your way and to constantly beg and whine for it makes them even less likely to put them in the game.
You are absolutly right my good man.
No one wants STO to be boring and giving Startfleet carrier Starships, would be one of the biggest mistakes the Devs could do. (It would be just nonsensical canon wise, Btw.)

Thank you for reading.
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