Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-04-2011, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP3CTREnyc
Thought I did that :p
You mention DPS in both case, but I think the second set of (larger) numbers of damage over time.

Quote:
Also, you could dload Nagorak's DPS calculator from this thread or this site
It is of limited use here, since we want the actual damage, not relative damage, and consider buffs. There aren't any calculators for this yet, except the game itself, I am afraid.

I suppose I need to use the combat log parser and see if I can figure some unsuspecting targets against which I can unload my Escort's Alpha strike?

Maybe I should set up a Foundry Project for such tests...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-04-2011, 02:15 AM
Good work bud!
Very helpful
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-04-2011, 03:45 AM
Sorry if you find my way of quoting harder to read but I find using quotation marks much easier and it feels more correct as well.


MustrumRidcully said "Shield damage Reduction and Hull Resistance work differently. Hull Resistance Modifiers have diminishing returns. Shield damage reduction does not."
How do we know this? Have we been told? Have we tested? Sorry if I missed it but all in game data I have seems to say they are the same. Shield damage reduction in game is called resistance buff. When I hover over the skill on the bar is says "Shield Damage Resistance". When I click the full description it says "Shield Damage Resistance Buff" This lead me to believe damage reduction is just another name for resistance. How do we know shields don't have diminishing returns? I was basing all my ideas on that shields have damage resistance like hull. Can you please show me a source to prove me wrong. I really thought shields had resistance in the same way as hull based on the in game info.

As for Attack Pattern Beta so you're basically saying anything in game that says - to all resistance has zero impact on shield resistance? That's very misleading. How are we meant to know this from in game data? Are you sure it has no impact on shield resistance?



MustrumRidcully said " Oh, you are talking about Bridge Officer or Captain abilities, not skills.
Rotate Shield Frequency gives you 134.4 shield hit points per second no matter what kind of shield you use. So Regenerative Shields have no additional advantage here, Covariants get just as much out of this as Regenerative or Regular or Resilient Shields. All this do is reducing the difference between regenerative and covariant shield's regeneration."

Sorry for some of the confusion on skills. I just called anything in the bar a skill no matter the source.
As for what you said it depends on the stacking order. Rotate Shield Frequency & Transfer Shields add to shield regeneration. What if the 14%consules boost this regeneration of that as well? Even if it doesn't, it doesn't help Covariants as much.. " All this do is reducing the difference between regenerative and covariant shield's regeneration." is incorrect. What it does is help cross the over the line from being able to tank or not. The point of a regen setup is to tank the incoming DPS indefinitely. With a regen setup you can either tank or you cannot, it doesn't work in the same way as buffer Covariants. The point of a regen setup it to get the tankable DPS high enough to make your buffer mostly not needed apart from to survive Alpha strikes.

A Covariants with extra regen is still going to run out of buffer sooner or later as the regen is so low as to be useless. While with a regen setup all those little regens add up to a lot so you get to a point when you can tank indefinitely.

Or another way to put it the Covariants might lasts 50seconds but the regen setup lasts indefinitely as the incoming DPS is less than the regen tankable DPS. What I am trying to say is you have drawn up a nice graph and charts but not looked at the main advantage of regen setups. How can you have a comparison of which is better without looking at how much DPS a regen setup can tank? without looking at how long a regen setup tanks? We haven't looked at the numbers, what if a maxed out regen tank can tank 8000 or 12000 dps? Then it could tank 2 or 3 Escorts. Not that I am saying it is that high, just a fair comparison needs to look at how much a regen setup can tank.

I have a nice Excel spreadsheet that I use in Eve online. You put in the buffer tank numbers, put in the regen numbers then it shows you how long both last against 2000 incoming DPS, 2500 incoming DPS, 3000 incoming DPS and so on. That way we can do a real nice comparison of Covariants shields against regen shields and add in armor tanking. I would love to do that and truly see mathematically which of the 3 is best.
We can assume 1 Escort does 4000dps. 2 Escorts do 8000 dps and see which setups lasts longer. The problem is I need more accurate regen numbers



MustrumRidcully said " As I said, if you count your shield regeneration four times, you need to count your shield capacity twice, too. After all, you can distribute your shield capacity between shields, too. A Covariant shield has more shield points to distribute, a Regenerative Shield restores more shield points."
Yes but you can only use up to 1 on console to boost hitpoints and distribute those hitpoints. But you can add up to 4 consoles that boost HP regen and distribute the extra regen from 4 sides. Take a small PvP match where your front shields get hit. The regen setup has up to 4 regen console which can distribute all 4 sides into the front shields. Then due to the 4 console's he gets far more hitpoints back to re-distribute then the typical buffer Covariants setup. From my point of view a regen setup has more hitpoints to distribute.



MustrumRidcully said " There aren't any skills that increase your shield regeneration. The Ship Captain skills improve your shield capacity."
Rotate Shield Frequency & Transfer Shields both add to shield regeneration but I have no idea how this stacks with shield regen consoles. Emergency power to shields effectively gives you around 50 shields points per facing per second over 30seconds.OK it's all arrives in 1 second but it's still a regular hitpoint boost. You add all those up with HP regen and shield distribute and put them in a formula I posted before then you can see how many ships a regen setup can tank. Surly that will be useful for your comparison?. What if a Covariants buffer setup can only tank 1 ship and a regen setup can tank 2 or 3 ships in PvP? Would you still say a Covariants buffer is better? Perhaps a Covariants still is better, but we need to look at the data not just assuming a Covariant is better.

EDIT: As for your graphs. How long does it take a Borg regen shield with x4 14% regen consoles to catch up to the buffer of the best Covariants shield with the 35% shield buffer consoles?

It would be nice to see an all out buffer setup compared to an all out regen setup. Is it still 50 seconds?

EDIT2: Could you tell me how much regen a Borg shield with x4, 14% shield regen consuls has at both 100 and 125 power? Are we guessing at how this all stacks or has kit been proven anywhere? Even if its guess work it will still be usefull.

EDIT3: I have been typing 14% shield recharge throughout my posts. I believe the best crafting console is only 13%.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
01-04-2011, 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Sorry if you find my way of quoting harder to read but I find using quotation marks much easier and it feels more correct as well.
I don't find it easy to read your posts, and that is why i will keep my further replies short.

Quote:
MustrumRidcully said "Shield damage Reduction and Hull Resistance work differently. Hull Resistance Modifiers have diminishing returns. Shield damage reduction does not."
How do we know this? Have we been told? Have we tested?
We have been told, and it was tested. I particularly fondly remember the days before there was the 75 % shield resist cap, when I could fly around with invulnerable shields in my Cruiser for some amount of time.

Quote:
As for Attack Pattern Beta so you're basically saying anything in game that says - to all resistance has zero impact on shield resistance? That's very misleading. How are we meant to know this from in game data? Are you sure it has no impact on shield resistance?
Yes, the terminology and mechanics should be clearer. But things are how they are.

To be honest, it seems to me that you have a missed a lot of previous discussion on the mechanics. I am not really interested in revisiting all of that. If you don't take my word for it, you can start re-reading posts from Salami_Inferno and snix. I think these two devs have posted the most about these topics. Though I think the topic explaining how resistance modifiers work was in a post by Stormshade (or another Dev typically active in the Federation News Network forum), and he has a longer post history.

Quote:
Yes but you can only use up to 1 on console to boost hitpoints and distribute those hitpoints. But you can add up to 4 consoles that boost HP regen and distribute the extra regen from 4 sides. Take a small PvP match where your front shields get hit. The regen setup has up to 4 regen console which can distribute all 4 sides into the front shields. Then due to the 4 console's he gets far more hitpoints back to re-distribute then the typical buffer Covariants setup. From my point of view a regen setup has more hitpoints to distribute.
Shield Capacity is also per facing.

I can't give you any insights about the Borg Shield regeneration, by the way. IThe exact bonuses seem undocumented, and hence, I would have to do actual testing. My data is based on the maths of the values known. That's also why I did not include powers either.

But consider this. The Regeneration from the shield is basically just another power. It is independent from the actual stats of the shields AFAIK.

No matter how you set up your shields, if you get shield points from powers, all that matters is your shield capacity. The lower it is, the more likely you can't benefit from all the healing. In case of the Borg shields, that might not be relevant, since it's a buff no other shield can get, and it might very well propell the shield behind anything Covariants or Regenerative Shields normally have to offer - but then it's from the power, not from the fact the shields have a higher regenerative value at expense for their capacity.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-04-2011, 04:56 AM
Quote:
EDIT3: I have been typing 14% shield recharge throughout my posts. I believe the best crafting console is only 13%.
This is also a neat example on the lack of balance in this regard by Cryptic.

The original Covariant and Regenerative Shields seem to be balanced around 25 % less or more cap and 25 % more or less regeneration.

Yet the console that boosts capacity for some reason gives a +35 % bonus, and the same rarity and Mark console that boosts capacity for some reason gives only a 13 %? Even If the Covariant and Regenerative trade offs were balanced (and I say they actually aren't), then the consoles definitely are not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-04-2011, 04:57 AM
I choose the Borg shield as it has the highest base regen so it would benefit most from the regen consoles. I wanted to know just how much DPS a regen setup could tank. I didn't mean the Borg regen set power, just the base borg shield. Reading though the links you gave.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-04-2011, 05:05 AM
Still reading though the posts but the most recent ones I could find talk about Shield damage resistance buff not damage reduction. All the healing changes reference shield resistance and no longer mention damage reduction. But I still have more to read. Anyway I am not convinced about shields are different from hull based on the recent dev posts. Will edit this post if I change my mind after reading more.

EDIT: Further posts seem to back resistance up. To quota the dev on the changes "Emergency Power to Shields now has a small instant shield heal, with a decent shield damage resistance buff over duration. It could be considered the primary self shield heal power."

So it's been changed to a resistance skill not a damage reduction. Which explains why the in game skill now says damage resistance as well in places.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Even If the Covariant and Regenerative trade offs were balanced (and I say they actually aren't), then the consoles definitely are not.
How do you know that when you haven't done the math? Until we work out DPS tanked we have no idea if the trade offs are balanced or not. Until someone shows the math for all we know Regenerative could tank x5 more than Covariant or x5 less.

I finished reading though all the dev post since shield healing got redone. Unless I missed it there is nothing to reference shields being different from amour since shield healing got reworked. All reference have the devs talking about shield resistance exactly the same as armour resistance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-04-2011, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Still reading though the posts but the most recent ones I could find talk about Shield damage resistance buff not damage reduction. All the healing changes reference shield resistance and no longer mention damage reduction. But I still have more to read. Anyway I am not convinced about shields are different from hull based on the recent dev posts. Will edit this post if I change my mind after reading more.

EDIT: Further posts seem to back resistance up. To quota the dev on the changes "Emergency Power to Shields now has a small instant shield heal, with a decent shield damage resistance buff over duration. It could be considered the primary self shield heal power."

So it's been changed to a resistance skill not a damage reduction. Which explains why the in game skill now says damage resistance as well in places.
No, the problem is that they use the expression "resistance" for shields, but it still isn't the same as the hull damage resistance. WHich is why I prefer to keep the terminology speerate.

Quote:
How do you know that when you haven't done the math? Until we work out DPS tanked we have no idea if the trade offs are balanced or not. Until someone shows the math for all we know Regenerative could tank x5 more than Covariant or x5 less.
I know how long ships in PvP typically last under heavy fire. It's not anywhere close to a minute. And if it's longer then a minute, I know that there are a lot of heals flying.

EDIT:
Here are the relevant posts from snix from this thread: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...19#post2827119

Quote:
Originally Posted by snix View Post
Shields:

- We are getting tech support for diminishing returns on shield fragility (shield damage resistance). The current plan is to diminish towards a max of 75% resistance (shields would take at a minimum 25% of the original damage).

Edit for clarity: Currently shield damage resistance does not diminsh, which allows for perfect shields. This fix will prevent perfect shields, thus improving your ability to lower shields, thus improving your damage over a current 'perfect shield' opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snix View Post
The cannon fixes made it through to Tribble.

The cap for shield damage resistance is still being tested internally. It should go up to Tribble soon. For testing, it will be first implemented as a cap, rather than diminishing like hull resistance.

RSP will not be changed until the shield damage resistance goes in and some play time is logged. This means it likely will not be changed until after Season 2 goes live. I think the suggestions for how to reduce or slightly modify it are interesting, including the suggestion of upping shield/hull HP to lower RSP's current need.

Looking forward to seeing you all on Tribble!
-snix
Nothing has changed since then on how shield resists work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-04-2011, 05:45 AM
MustrumRidcully is correct about skills that debuff 'Damage Resistance' only affect HULL resistances, they do nothing for Shield 'Damage Reduction' (which is provided by skills such as EPtS or TSS).

I recommend that you check out this thread for a more detailed explanation. (Starts on Page 1, then goes into much more detail on Pages 3+.)

Hope that helps to clear up some confusion,
-Big Red
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-04-2011, 06:14 AM
MustrumRidcully you say" And if it's longer then a minute, I know that there are a lot of heals flying." But isn't that the point of a regen setup? You have that healing flying around by default without using skills. Have you even tested a full regen setup in PvP or are you just making one big assumption? Why not do the math. It doesn't seem fair to draw a comparison between the two shields based on assumptions. A fair comparison needs to look at how much DPS a regen setup can tank. Otherwise you cannot work out which shield is better.

According to the dev post it suggests I am right. He says shields pre changes don't have diminishing returns but they are adding in diminishing returns with a 75% cap.
" We are getting tech support for diminishing returns on shield fragility (shield damage resistance). The current plan is to diminish towards a max of 75% resistance (shields would take at a minimum 25% of the original damage)."
Very clearly says shields are getting diminishing returns but it's not implanted in the first wave of testing. The first wave was a cap only with diminishing returns being added later.

As far as I can see shields are the same as armour both are resistance based. 50% shield resistance is exactly the same as 50% armour resistance. There might be a difference in the way shield diminishing returns work against Amor diminishing returns but both seem to have diminishing returns.

As for - to resistance only lowering armour resistance not shield resistance I will try and test that later.
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