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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I hate Carriers. Not because theyare OP. Or UP. Or perfectly balanced. Or because they are are ugly and fat. Or because they cause targeting spam. Or because they cause lag. All that isn't really my issue.

I just don't like them because this is Startrek, not Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica (TOS or TNS) or Space Above And Beyond or Babylon 5. All perfeclty fine franchises I dearly love (well, Space Above and Beyond didn't really become a franchise) and enjoyed and are not Startrek. They don't fit into the Startrek "aesthetics" of space combat, and all canon evidence suggests that Fighters pack neither considerable punch nor survivability and are only used as last ressort when you want to throw everything in you got. They just aren't effective.

This is a purely theoretical idea. I don't think this will ever happen. Don't worry about that. No one listens to me anyway.

But let's pretend for a moment that Cryptic and CBS suddenly realize that fighters and Carriers don't really make much sense in Startrek, do not fit established canon, and they got a cease and desist letter from George Lucas and Glen A. Larson reminding us that they share an exclusive patent on WW2 style warfare in space.

What would you do? You can't just rip out 2 end-game ships and existing art assets and play styles and give nothing in return. This would lead to murder and mayhem.

So, what would you do? What kind of ship class would you come up with? What would you do with the existing Carrier models? How can they be reused?

I might turn Carriers into Cruisers. Or Science Vessels. But a slow-turning science vessel kinda sucks, doesn't it? So it might need a special trick. Maybe 7-8 weapon slots instead of 6 could do that? Maybe they could turn into mine layers (as I said, targeting spam, lag, not my problem, and I assume not part of the patent of Lucas and Larson either). The "old" bays are turned into mine layers. Maybe we could create new special types of mines, say, self-replicating cloaked mines or some such?

Or maybe they could all be equipped with "Disruptor Spears"?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-05-2011, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I might turn Carriers into Cruisers. Or Science Vessels. But a slow-turning science vessel kinda sucks, doesn't it? So it might need a special trick. Maybe 7-8 weapon slots instead of 6 could do that? Maybe they could turn into mine layers (as I said, targeting spam, lag, not my problem, and I assume not part of the patent of Lucas and Larson either). The "old" bays are turned into mine layers. Maybe we could create new special types of mines, say, self-replicating cloaked mines or some such?
Mines are, essentially, boring. They're ugly, stupid and have no personality whatsoever. They're also massively vulnerable to aoe weaponry, and chroniton/tricobalt apart they suck.

Things that could be done if fighters aren't your cup of tea:
- drone carriers. Not especially klingon-y, but if it's purely the idea of fighters then that would avoid the basic concept. (this would make more sense for a non-klingon/non-federation race)
- turret deployers. Personally, this is more a "Federation thing".
- torpedo boat. Oft-discussed, and hard to see how it would be balanced.
- saucer-separation-style thingy. Somehow part of the ship snaps off?
- a command & control ship.

Personally, I have more trouble accepting the escort-class than I do the carriers.

Edit: something that wouldn't solve the issue, but would be interesting - give carrier pilots an RTS style view of the battle, and make them more 'admirals' than captains. [probably impractical though]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-05-2011, 02:29 AM
Well, they could replace the launch bays with "auto-turrets", sort of like the self defense tactical console. The turrets could do various things, like boost shields of allies, repulsor or tractor beam people, or be self defense turrets. Possibly a short range AoE self defense turret.

There'd be no reason for the ship to be huge anymore though, since it doesn't carry wings of fighters, BoPs, and/or frigates. So they could both be reduced in size, crew size reduced, and turn rate boosted.

Although, come to think of it, I'd rather see this idea go to the Feds. An AoE self defense turret is sort of like flak, anti-fighter. Meanwhile, the shield buffing, tractors and repulsors and such fit with the Federation love of modifying deflector dishes. It'd be kind of cool, a Federation counterpart for carriers, but not carriers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-05-2011, 03:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
Mines are, essentially, boring. They're ugly, stupid and have no personality whatsoever. They're also massively vulnerable to aoe weaponry, and chroniton/tricobalt apart they suck.

Things that could be done if fighters aren't your cup of tea:
- drone carriers. Not especially klingon-y, but if it's purely the idea of fighters then that would avoid the basic concept. (this would make more sense for a non-klingon/non-federation race)
Drones would make a somewhat more sensible concept then fighters, but only... some. The only real advantage of drones over fighters is that you're not hemorrhaging people, you're just losing expensive drones. The main problem with drones and fighters is that they are weakly defended and have no notable firepower. Spending all that resources on 24 fighters would be better spent on a BoP or Raptor, at least you have a chance of not constantly losing personnel and ships.

Still, a drone might work for another reason - the original intention might not have been warfare. I could see Starfleet or the KLingons use Drone Carriers for an entirely different purpose - charting star systems and sectors, sending out probes. And in war, well, the carriers themselves don't have much internal space reserved for weapons. Building some drones with phasers beams or cannons and putting them aboard might be simpler then trying to rip out drone launch bays to make space for more guns.

Quote:
- torpedo boat. Oft-discussed, and hard to see how it would be balanced.
Possibly another thing more interesting for PvP only, like, say, the Nebula's Detection Grid. (No NPCs worth it ever cloak.)

Quote:
- a command & control ship.
What would this entail, mechanically?

In theory, I am not opposed to pets, as long as they are not fighters. Maybe a C&C ship would have a "pet fleet"? Or would it just give buffs to allies (so not so great for solo PvE).


Quote:
Personally, I have more trouble accepting the escort-class than I do the carriers.
I think Escorts make some sense in Startrek, if you consider that most ships are really only that big because they carry a ton of research equipment, crew, medical bays, empty space, and vast cargo bays for the variety of missions they do and for the long-range engagements they have. Escorts are basically stripped of everything not crucial for a combat situation. They won't go out and explore the galaxy and find new civilizations for a long time. The crew would be out of non-replicatable resources quickly, and get mad at the tight quarters, and any serious injury to a crewman would either incapcitate or kill him due to the lack of medical facilities. But the Escorts are as close as you can get to "fighter jets" in Startrek. Anything smaller can't pack the necessary energy supply for powerful shields, engines and weapons. At least that's how it seems, since the Defiant seemed to work fine in DS9, but the Runabouts and Peregrines didn't really.

Quote:
Edit: something that wouldn't solve the issue, but would be interesting - give carrier pilots an RTS style view of the battle, and make them more 'admirals' than captains. [probably impractical though]
I really hope that something like this might one day come, as the future for our "Fleet Admirals".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-05-2011, 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
What would you do?
I'd turn the Negh'vars into the new "carriers" (category deemed Command Ship or Dreadnought) whilst leaving the NV's current role to the Tor'Kaht and the Refit-Vor'cha. The Vo'Quv could be refitted to become a Negh'var variant.

It pains me that the former Klingon flagship has become something that is no larger and no better than an ordinary battlecruiser, even going so far as to being more nimble than its Federation counterparts just so it can align its poor standard cannons rather than forcing an enemy to avoid the NV's front because it would be devastating to be hit by a full volley.

I go into more detail concerning my version of the NV here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-05-2011, 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
a cease and desist letter from George Lucas and Glen A. Larson reminding us that they share an exclusive patent on WW2 style warfare in space.
I'm curiuos, How does one patent such a thing?

As for replacing the carrier, I can not say. I imagine we would just have a void until such time as the Devs design another vessel to fill it.
I can also only assume that the "cries of _______" would begin anew regardless of what the Devs create.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-05-2011, 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I'm curiuos, How does one patent such a thing?
The method is unfortunately patented and unless you are willing to pay for a sublicense (like Glen A Larson and George Lucas did), I cannot disclose this to you.

Quote:
As for replacing the carrier, I can not say. I imagine we would just have a void until such time as the Devs design another vessel to fill it.
I can also only assume that the "cries of _______" would begin anew regardless of what the Devs create.
If the other side has it, it must be OP. Hence Science Vessels are OP Fed ships, and BoPs and Carriers are OP Klink ships. Fear what you don't know.

What kind of ship ideas do you still see for STO?

Maybe the Carriers could be turned into some kind of "Anti-BOP". Not fast, nimble and fragile, but slow, clumsy and tough, but also with generic bridge officer slots.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-05-2011, 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Drones would make a somewhat more sensible concept then fighters, but only... some. The only real advantage of drones over fighters is that you're not hemorrhaging people, you're just losing expensive drones. The main problem with drones and fighters is that they are weakly defended and have no notable firepower. Spending all that resources on 24 fighters would be better spent on a BoP or Raptor, at least you have a chance of not constantly losing personnel and ships.
In theory a drone would be 'cheap':
- no internal space required, so it's a hell of a lot smaller.
- no life support, so substantially less complex.
- no backup systems - if it gets damaged, it crashes, no crew recovery/emergency panels etc.
- no crew training costs, replacements when ill/dead etc.
- less rigorous maintenance.

Drones are usually highly cost-effective, and it could be argued the same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Still, a drone might work for another reason - the original intention might not have been warfare. I could see Starfleet or the KLingons use Drone Carriers for an entirely different purpose - charting star systems and sectors, sending out probes. And in war, well, the carriers themselves don't have much internal space reserved for weapons. Building some drones with phasers beams or cannons and putting them aboard might be simpler then trying to rip out drone launch bays to make space for more guns.
Yep, alternatively, there might be a foe where drones would be especially useful (an enemy that uses a huge numbers of their own drones? or maybe a gaseous-style entity? ...). Either works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
What would this entail, mechanically?

In theory, I am not opposed to pets, as long as they are not fighters. Maybe a C&C ship would have a "pet fleet"? Or would it just give buffs to allies (so not so great for solo PvE).
Maybe in PvE it summons ships, and in PvP it instead focuses more on buffing friendly ships? Lots of possible options I guess, good to see ideas floated .

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think Escorts make some sense in Startrek
Personally I just think trek was more unique before creating the defiant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I really hope that something like this might one day come, as the future for our "Fleet Admirals".
I don't think everyone would enjoy an RTS-style interface, and I suspect it's a huge amount of work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-05-2011, 07:08 AM
I would fly a hump back whale into battle just to rid myself of the carrier jones I'd be going through without one.............and then i would let it swallow every ship whole......Arrrrghhh mighty tasty......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-05-2011, 07:18 AM
Quote:
I would fly a hump back whale into battle just to rid myself of the carrier jones I'd be going through without one.............and then i would let it swallow every ship whole......Arrrrghhh mighty tasty......
Hmm. Domesticated Space Lifeforms that eat ships? Nom Nom Nom.

Quote:
I don't think everyone would enjoy an RTS-style interface, and I suspect it's a huge amount of work.
Well, not everyone likes ground combat, and we still got it. But I tend to agree that it should not be a forced part of the game, at least no more forced then the ability to play Carriers forces people to play Carriers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
Personally I just think trek was more unique before creating the defiant.
Well, you might have a point there. But I like the Defiant, so there. :p
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