Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-08-2011, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Factions in STO don't make sense if developed like factions in WoW or Guild Wars or Star Wars.
That's because they're NOT like WoW factions. They are based of canon military organisations. They're not supposed to be like WoW factions, they're supposed to be like Starfleet and the KDF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I think we need a real overhaul of what a faction IS and how content is designed for them, honestly.
I don't. The faction (since that's the word you used) setup in STO seems perfectly fine for the setting it's being applied to. Considering the problems the game has, i think doing a total revamp of something as significant as the player organisational level would be a waste of time and far too big a risk of having it blow up in their faces if they get it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Federation Tactical = Alliance Death Knight
Federation Science = Alliance Paladin
Federation Engineer = Alliance Warrior

Klingon Tactical = Horde Death Knight
Klingon Science = Horde Paladin
Klingon Engineer = Horde Warrior
Honestly, that's not even close imo and to add, why do we want a system that merely copies another game anyways? No wonder this industry is stagnant when it comes to gameplay. Noone wants to do anything but copy the big games with their gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
This is a radical redesign. This isn't just "let Klingons and Feds team-up" or "open some (or most) Federation missions to Klingons." I'm suggesting that what a mission is shouldn't have faction. It should be a situation which anyone who encounters will have a stake in and participate in the same side, potentially, in.
Radically redesigning the game at this point is not going to help it. All it's going to do is try and rebuild a core element of the game that whilst not spectacularly interesting doesn't actually need fixing. It's going to take time away from development of content that frankly, this game cannot afford to do, you only have to look at the forums or read zone in game to see that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-08-2011, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadscythe
That's because they're NOT like WoW factions. They are based of canon military organisations. They're not supposed to be like WoW factions, they're supposed to be like Starfleet and the KDF.



I don't. The faction (since that's the word you used) setup in STO seems perfectly fine for the setting it's being applied to. Considering the problems the game has, i think doing a total revamp of something as significant as the player organisational level would be a waste of time and far too big a risk of having it blow up in their faces if they get it wrong.



Honestly, that's not even close imo and to add, why do we want a system that merely copies another game anyways? No wonder this industry is stagnant when it comes to gameplay. Noone wants to do anything but copy the big games with their gameplay.



Radically redesigning the game at this point is not going to help it. All it's going to do is try and rebuild a core element of the game that whilst not spectacularly interesting doesn't actually need fixing. It's going to take time away from development of content that frankly, this game cannot afford to do, you only have to look at the forums or read zone in game to see that.

I'm not suggesting copying another game. I'm using other games to describe how this one already works and saying it needs to be less like other games.

Bottom line, let's say the goal is six factions by the end of 2012. The goal is non-negotiable and you don't get to hire more developers or generate content faster than it's being generated. How do you do that?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-08-2011, 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I'm not suggesting copying another game. I'm using other games to describe how this one already works and saying it needs to be less like other games.

Bottom line, let's say the goal is six factions by the end of 2012. The goal is non-negotiable and you don't get to hire more developers or generate content faster than it's being generated. How do you do that?
Whether you its "factions" or "classes", the end result will be the Feds have more content than everyone else(if there is class/faction unique stories), or everyone has the same bland generic stories and it doesnt really mean anything to be one faction/class over another story-wise.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
01-08-2011, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Heres the problem: unless those "classes" have their own unique stories that make them who they are, then theres no point in having more than one(if their all doing the same thing). But as we can already see, its not possible for Cryptic to create a balanced amount of faction(or class) specific content, so even in your system the Fed class would have more Fed themed content than any other class.
The uniqueness should come in gameplay, IMHO.

You have a planet. That planet has a problem. It has certain NPCs in certain places doing certain things. Your faction should determine how you interact with that problem. Creating a different problem for every faction is counterproductive to the goal of as many factions with as much content as possible at a relatively rapid rate.

At the heart of it, Star Trek Captains don't spend their time on their own faction's turf running errands. They spend most of their time in neutral or hostile space acting as a free agent of their faction, with broad discretionary powers but with constraints on how they address the problem.

You don't get sent somewhere to do X, Y, and Z. You get sent somewhere with a problem and are expected to figure out a solution for yourself.

I don't think having to develop full and unique content for each faction makes sense, especially when they should be encountering the same situations at the same places.

As split as the fandom is, spending too long on developing a faction doesn't make sense. There has to be a rewarding way to procedurally generate them rather than have to go through and place mobs and write text for every faction. The factions' fanbases are too small to justify that and yet, taken together, offering something for everyone is better than what we have.

As a for iinstance, my assumption is that the weeklies are designed with the idea that all new factions will play the exact same mission with new text. Cardassians and Romulans will also be fighting Devidians on Drosana and disguising their ship as a Bird of Prey and aiding the Deferi and uncovering the Preservers. The point of these missions is to start building up library content for everyone, so that Cryptic can crank out factions faster... and most the development on the KDF side is trying to design a template that can be copied for other factions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-08-2011, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Whether you its "factions" or "classes", the end result will be the Feds have more content than everyone else(if there is class/faction unique stories), or everyone has the same bland generic stories and it doesnt really mean anything to be one faction/class over another story-wise.
Well, no. Not at all. I'm absolutely saying that story and mission need to be more divorced.

The mission is the problem. The game mechanics are how you address it. This would allow for the generation of more complete factions faster.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-08-2011, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I'm not suggesting copying another game. I'm using other games to describe how this one already works and saying it needs to be less like other games.

Bottom line, let's say the goal is six factions by the end of 2012. The goal is non-negotiable and you don't get to hire more developers or generate content faster than it's being generated. How do you do that?
Ultimately as negative as i am regarding the game and it's current state, I trust Cry...actually i trust dstahl, to make the right decisions about how to improve the game. So far he's doing a pretty decent job. Sure there's stuff i disagree with and think is a waste of time (Foundry for one) but ultimately he has access to info i don't and at the end of the day all i can do is offer my input on what is currently being worked on when it's appropriate.

Expecting me to come up with ideas on how to generate content for a ficticous6 factions by 2012 is not even worth entertaining. I'm not an armchair game dev and have no interest in being one. At the end of the day i want a fun game that's true to it's source material and constantly moving forward gameplay and systems wise. While STO has plenty of work to do, it's done that for the most part since it's launch.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-08-2011, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
The uniqueness should come in gameplay, IMHO.

You have a planet. That planet has a problem. It has certain NPCs in certain places doing certain things. Your faction should determine how you interact with that problem. Creating a different problem for every faction is counterproductive to the goal of as many factions with as much content as possible at a relatively rapid rate.
So every single mission should take place in some nuetral location? Because it wouldnt make sense for Klingons to be doing missions in Fed space and vice versa. The problem is if you try to design a mission that can be played by everyone, its going to be super generic and not actually feel like your really a Fed, or Klingon(or Rom, or whatever other faction your talking about). For example, I just played the first weekly series on my KDF. While the missions themselves were very well made and I was definitely glad to have something to do on my Klingon, I have to admit it didnt really seem like something a Klingon would be doing. It just felt way too diplomatic, helping the Defari and all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-10-2011, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
The uniqueness should come in gameplay, IMHO.
I think they've already started doing this a bit, with the class-specific objectives. The Devidian series had a mission that allowed Tacs to activate turrets in the last room. If I get what you're saying, a situation like this would have a room full of bad guys, and various options for dealing with them. A Fed might get a diplomatic option, and, if that fails, an option to subdue the bad guys with a knock-out gas. A Romulan might be able to sneak in and take them out one by one. Is that what you're aiming for?

If it is, I don't think it's really a great solution. Time and cost effective, maybe, but reasonably boring. Even though a Fed and a Romulan deal with the room full of bad guys differently, it's still the same room full of bad guys. And if the devs went through and really fully developed class or faction specific solutions to each new mission, it might take the same amount of time to just write two separate missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-10-2011, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Bottom line, let's say the goal is six factions by the end of 2012. The goal is non-negotiable and you don't get to hire more developers or generate content faster than it's being generated. How do you do that?
You don't. Fortunately Cryptic seems to have understood this, given their comments regarding future factions and the feedback on how the Klingons turned out to be.

If you cannot do something right, don't do it at all.
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