Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
01-14-2011, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyyy View Post
With the queen dead, the collective was no more so adaptation died with it.
Her "death" isn't concrete proof of anything. The Queen died in First Contact too, yet there she was on Voyager. Trek canon did not establish the Borg were wiped out completely by the actions of Janeway and crew.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
01-14-2011, 10:35 AM
How much you want to bet that the Borg get retrofitted in a Featured Series?

- Adaptive shielding, like with the Aegis set bonus, is a really good simulation of what the Borg do when they get shot at. They adapt to counter whatever is being thrown at them, but their enemies can always adjust frequency or whatever and hit them again. If you start seeing this on the drones, you will be changing your tactics, guaranteed.

- Borg tech. All you guys flying around with Borg parts and set bonuses? I predict it will someday (soon?) be painfully obvious where those came from.

- Borg ship upgrades. I like Katic's ideas for how to make Borg ships a more serious threat, even though I personally never want to run into any of those solo...

There's lots of potential for them to be really scary. Even now, they are not a total cakewalk outside the STF's. The question is how do you make them really scary without making them impossible to fight?

I think the answer to this lies in Borg AI.

The real weakness of the Borg is in their collective psyche. They're very one-track, single-minded. Despite the fact that they have all of this technology and resources at their disposal, they still tend to think in terms of brute force solutions. Borg always go for the easy solution first... since if it works, it's the most efficient way to do it. Only if it doesn't work do they actually start trying to adapt. I think it is also accurate that Borg do not really innovate. They merely co-opt the innovations of others. I've never seen Borg engineers on the ground. If the Borg figured out how to assimilate Undine, I would tend to believe it is because they assimilated somebody who had an idea about how to overcome Undine resistances and then set about to test it.

So the key is Borg behavior. When you start out fighting them, they truly are like mindless zombies. The Borg are going for the brute force solution first. They ignore individuals and concentrate on the greatest threat first. The longer you fight them, the harder they become to fight. They start gaining resistances, recognizing threats, using tactical strategy, and beaming in additional drones. So the key to fighting them is to hit hard and fast using multiple strategies and abilities before they can successfully adapt and overwhelm.

Now, how to translate that into game terms is up to the Devs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
01-14-2011, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I disagree, as the history of SciFi literature has shown its possible to have "uber-enemies" and write a sensible stoyline on how they are defeated.
Overcoming impossible odds has been a staple of story telling since before any of us where ever concieved.
The Borg and Undine weren't designed to be a challenging enemy or impossible odds. They were designed to be undefeatable, because their creators don't understand story telling. They should be viewed as characters from a holonovel that is every bit as badly written as the TV shows where they appear.

Challenging adversaries is good story telling. Improbable (not impossible) odds to overcome is good story telling. A species with deity-like abilities against which you have no hope of prevailing, is not good story telling; which is why the Borg and Undine had to be nerfed. It is also why, ultimately, all Star Trek after The Real Series and crew departed, was destined to fail. The post-TRS incarnations became bogged down with all the baggage they created for themselves.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
01-14-2011, 11:43 AM
doesnt change the fact that janeway sucks. as for you undine folks, whilst i have no disagreement with you, I can easily see the roles reversed and janeway from the future comes and give present janeway some crap to ruin your day. We need to stop fighting and just kill her already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
01-14-2011, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquatic
The Borg and Undine weren't designed to be a challenging enemy or impossible odds. They were designed to be undefeatable, because their creators don't understand story telling. They should be viewed as characters from a holonovel that is every bit as badly written as the TV shows where they appear.

Challenging adversaries is good story telling. Improbable (not impossible) odds to overcome is good story telling. A species with deity-like abilities against which you have no hope of prevailing, is not good story telling; which is why the Borg and Undine had to be nerfed. It is also why, ultimately, all Star Trek after The Real Series and crew departed, was destined to fail. The post-TRS incarnations became bogged down with all the baggage they created for themselves.
News Flash. Trek has always had that kind of baggage. The difference is, TOS had little or no recurring storylines. Pretty much every episode was self-contained, so there was no consequence involved for anything that followed. Only in TNG do you start to see the franchise building on what had gone before and having to deal with those changes later.

The Borg were never "deity-like" or undefeatable. There are other races in Trek with superior power, like the Q, hence the Borg were never at the top of the "food chain". Likewise with the Undine.

Were there elements of poor writing involved in some of the episodes? Most certainly! Nobody is really satisfied with a Deux Ex Machina outcome, but sometimes writers wind up writing themselves into a corner where no other kind of outcome comes immediately to mind. If you're on a deadline, you finish the script any way the producer will let you.
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