Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-17-2011, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
You have to count in 2 things

1. It has been 30 years since the Borg was last seen, Starfleet is stronger than before.

2. The attack made during Endgame set the Borg back 30 years, which means that if you take that into account, the Borg we are facing now have just reached the technological point they where back during the late TNG-era. Which means that while the Federation has gotten stronger, the Borg has just healed themselves from that battle. So Starfleet has technically passed the Borg.


I would like to see them be able to adapt to our weaponry (as a resist buff).
Who's to say that they would follow the same technological pathline as the did before? They may have progressed even further in those years, even exponentially. So trying to reason like that is a flat logical fallacy IMHO. That being said, I would hardly say they have 'technically' passed the borg.

Quote:
Some things have to be changed to make the game playable. If one Cube could take on a whole fleet, then you'd have no chance. Likewise, your Galaxy-X Dreadnought can not one-hit a Negh'Var.
You're looking at that like it's an issue. A cube can easily be made into a 'fleet combat action' where as spheres and other 'low tier ships' could be normal vessels. While not exactly canon, the idea still works. Not everything needs to be soloable, IMHO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-18-2011, 02:02 AM
The way things are now, the Crystalline Entity is more powerful than a Borg cube (ludicrous concept), a Romulan Scimitar is more powerful than a Borg cube, and the Borg have lost their ability to adapt.

The point is, that the Borg are Star Trek's boogeymen. Unavoidable, unstoppable. They assimilate and destroy everything, and only a few skirmishes against them have been won. Yes, skirmishes. Voyager was... special circumstances.

But, the 30 year absense? Guys and gals, the Borg were centuries ahead technologically, and surely they continued to assimilate other races.

And, please, don't even get me started on the Undine... I am trying hard to overlook this issue. The game built up the excitement over the Undine, and you can take them out just as easily as any other race (they are even easier than the Borg).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-18-2011, 03:08 AM
On second thought, almost all Borg encounters that seemed easy can be explained away:

1) Tutorial -- these Borg are heavily weakened from the events of "Khitomer Accord"
2) State of Q -- these Borg are classic era (Battle of Wolf 359)
3) Collateral Damage -- these Borg are dealing with Undine (aka Species 8472)

That leaves only:
  • Asset Recovery
  • Infected
  • The Cure
  • Khitomer Accord
The Borg are quite tough in the latter 3. Starbase 82 (Infected) was the #2 spot for Battle Group Omega and considering that almost all 200+ Starfleet officers were assimilated, along with the commander Captain Ogen and their top researcher Rebecca Simmons (Manus of Borg) the Federation got owned pretty hard. In The Cure and Khitomer Accord they dish out quite a punishment.

As for the Borg that appear in the star cluster missions...that seems to be more an artifact of the randomly generated missions more than anything else.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianHero
As for the Borg that appear in the star cluster missions...that seems to be more an artifact of the randomly generated missions more than anything else.
I agree with this. I still love my "beam down to abandoned Borg base and search computer for Borg personal logs."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-19-2011, 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loyaltrekie View Post
Who's to say that they would follow the same technological pathline as the did before? They may have progressed even further in those years, even exponentially. So trying to reason like that is a flat logical fallacy IMHO. That being said, I would hardly say they have 'technically' passed the borg.
The Borg's very nature. The Borg ASSIMILATE other species, and if your remember a good majority of the species we have seen from the Delta Quadrant aren't really the most technologically advanced. And many that where probably where assimilated a long time ago. Basically, the Borg in that sense is screwed. I do have to mention that we did not see a whole LOT of the Delta Quadrant, so that may be a false assumption.

Now, you also have to count in that basically the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE WAS LITERALLY BROKEN APART. How long do you think it would have taken for the Borg to reassemble an adequate Hive-mind? You have to remember that for Drones, dealing with individuality is hard, and most likely they where very confused and unable to work their advanced machinery. Also, the Queen was dead, meaning that the Borg's main Processor of Info is gone, and Chaos is brought into the remainder of the Collective. It is logical to assume that many of those years where spent just reassembling the Collective, and that the Borg probably lost some of their All-Powerful Knowledge. (Much like a Virus)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-19-2011, 06:10 PM
A couple things:

The Transwarp Hub we saw destroyed was one of six in the Milky Way, the Borg still have access to most of the Milky Way. The technological limitations of Delta Quadrant Species would not be a barrier to the Borg continuing to assimilate advanced technology.

As we have seen in multiple episodes from TNG & VOY, as well as First Contact and that one episode from ENT, Borg groups separated from the collective will establish their own collective, even going so far as to generate a new Queen, any "fracturing" that occurred from future Janeways neurolytic toxin was likely undone inside a few weeks, maybe a year at most. Even if that entire hub of the Borg was obliterated, and all it's drones and computers lost, the Borg have "Thousands of worlds and Millions of ships", each one capable of becoming the new Unimatrix 01.

Indeed, it's likely that Unimatrix 02 merely got a promotion and began reasserting collective control within moments of the Unimatrix 01 being disrupted. In fact, it's possible that the confusion engendered by the neurolytic toxin may have merely been an inability to recognize the proper command and control structure, and it was the Borgs own countermeasures fighting Unimatrix to Unimatrix that caused the chaos. That may have even been the entire purpose of the toxin in the first place, corrupt recognition protocols, disrupting the Collective command structure. Kind of like Scramble Sensors in STO.

But no matter how it functioned, it was a material threat, a toxin, which would not have continued to affect far-flung Borg after the destruction of Unimatrix 01.

It's my bet that the Borg have lain in wait these past three decades as they rebuilt the sixth of their Transwarp Network disabled by Janeway. If you really think about it, the Borg (the true Borg, in Gamma Orionis) should be more powerful, the fact that they aren't isn't from story concerns, it's from a game play mechanic nerf. They wanted the Borg Endgame to be something other than PCs being wiped again and again, so they tuned them back.

Canonically, the Borg should be the terrifying, nearly-unstoppable force they were portrayed as in TNG, and lets face it, the Borg from VOY were nerfed by the writers to keep the Voyager crew from being wiped out and assimilated by the first stray Sphere.

Oh, and Doogie? As to the size difference, watch the Battle of Sector 001, and then the final battle from Endgame, look at the size of the Cubes compared to Voyager, and compared to the Enterprise-E. The size difference is obvious.

Actually, come to think of it, the size of the Cubes from Wolf 359 and the Battle of Sector 001 were probably he biggest mistake the Borg made. Looking at the size of the entrance Apertures at the Transwarp Hub, a cube of their size couldn't fit, which explains why those cubes always appeared on the edges of Federation space and traveled towards Earth using conventional Warp. We never see the "big" Cubes use Transwarp. If they had used smaller, transwarp-capable cubes, they could have exited right on Earths doorstep with little to no warning, with dozens of the smaller Cubes to overwhelm any meager defensive force Starfleet may have been able to muster.

I have repeatedly said the Borg need to be buffed, and I stand by it.

With the addition of the Borg set, the smallest group of Borg we see should be three partially assimilated (Borg Set outfitted) ships, Fed, KDF, Cardassian, a random assortment would do nicely.

The second level should be a Borg probe, upgraded to roughly the same difficulty of the current Borg Spheres, accompanied by several partially assimilated ships.

The third level should be a Borg Sphere, upgrades to the level of the current Borg Cubes.

The Borg Cubes should have the firepower and resilience of the current Borg Tactical Cube.

The Borg Tactical Cube should have armor and shield resistances and weapons buffs over and beyond their current level.

The sixth, and final Borg ship we see in any kind of commonality should be what I think of as the "Assimilation Cube" the hulking, uber-powerful Cubes that they sent to assimilate Earth each time. twice as tall, wide, and thick as the Borg cubes we're dealing with now, with 8 times the mass. It should be reserved for a Crystalline Entity-type Fleet Action.

Each level should be able to resist and adapt to the conditions they encounter.

Gaining 1% resistance to each weapon type used against it every ten seconds, with different plateaus for each level. The partially assimilated ships plateau at 10%, Probes at 20%, Spheres at 30%, Cubes at 40%, Tactical cubes at 50%, and Assimilation Cubes at 60%.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-19-2011, 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
The Borg's very nature. The Borg ASSIMILATE other species, and if your remember a good majority of the species we have seen from the Delta Quadrant aren't really the most technologically advanced. And many that where probably where assimilated a long time ago. Basically, the Borg in that sense is screwed. I do have to mention that we did not see a whole LOT of the Delta Quadrant, so that may be a false assumption.

Now, you also have to count in that basically the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE WAS LITERALLY BROKEN APART. How long do you think it would have taken for the Borg to reassemble an adequate Hive-mind? You have to remember that for Drones, dealing with individuality is hard, and most likely they where very confused and unable to work their advanced machinery. Also, the Queen was dead, meaning that the Borg's main Processor of Info is gone, and Chaos is brought into the remainder of the Collective. It is logical to assume that many of those years where spent just reassembling the Collective, and that the Borg probably lost some of their All-Powerful Knowledge. (Much like a Virus)
The ending of Voyager's finale "Endgame" was deliberately ambiguous about the Borg's fate. What we do know is that Unimatrix 01, home to trillions of Borg, was destroyed, along with at least one version of the Borg Queen and the transwarp hub (one of 6 in the galaxy). The Unimatrix Zero rebellion may have slowed the Borg down as well after Voyager returned home.

However, we do know the Borg have not been destroyed or even crippled in that they are becoming more forceful in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. They have also advanced enough to assimilate Species 8472 (Undine).

As far as the Delta Quadrant species, less advanced races do not mean that the Borg would get weaker -- it just means they wouldn't advance foward by leaps and bounds. Both Seven of Nine (in Path to 2409) and Leonard Nimoy's voiceover for Gamma Orionis said that these Borg are an even greater threat than they were in the past. Voyager returned in 2379 and the Borg have had three decades to rebuild. The Federation has more technology, but is also confronted with a war with the Klingons, an erratic Romulan Star Empire, an insurrection with the True Way Alliance, Undine infiltration, and a still largely unknown Iconian threat on the horizon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitris_Botonis
Borg should be terrifying. A Borg cube is something that a starship can't take on alone. Yet, we routinely take on Borg during single-player missions. On ground missions, Borg are dispatched like every other race.

Maybe, in space missions, we should only come across and destroy Borg ships up to sphere level. A new scenario could be developed, where we take on a huge Borg cube just like the Crystal Entity scenario (it would require several ships working in absolute coordination to destroy it). It would look like the opening fleet combat scene on Star Trek: First Contact.

On the ground, I propose this for the Borg: the first wave should be extremely easy to destroy (one or two shots). The second wave would be harder, the third about as hard as the usual generic bad guys. The fourth would be hard (about as hard as the difficult setting). The fifth would have fully adapted: it would be invincible. The trick would be that the Borg would be slow, and would not fire ranged weapons, but their melee attack would be devastating. They'd look like mechanical zombies. Mission objectives would not be to "kill all Borg", but to interact with consoles, steal tech, reach a point where we can blow everything up, ect.

I really think that a lot work must be done to the Borg. As they are now, they are NOT the Borg we love to hate.
I disagree, especially in the STFs. A couple attempts at Cure and you NEVER want to go back!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-19-2011, 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
I disagree, especially in the STFs. A couple attempts at Cure and you NEVER want to go back!
I definitely sympathize. If there were about twice as many respawn points and those forcefield walls weren't such a huge pain without a pre-made, then I'd do it a lot more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-19-2011, 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianHero
I definitely sympathize. If there were about twice as many respawn points and those forcefield walls weren't such a huge pain without a pre-made, then I'd do it a lot more.
At LEAST once you pass the last gate, put a respawn point AND a point where you can leave the map and come back later so you don't have to start over when you've given up on Armek.
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