Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon_Hawkwood
but Elite ground combat is tedious at best.
I think it's just that the boosted enemy HP and resistances highlight the existing tedium more strongly without bringing any actual additional complexity.
Aside from the ones that are outright bugged, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon_Hawkwood
Personally I think they should have taken the route used by Pirates of the Burning Sea and had separate skill points for space skills and ground skills although it's probably way to late to implement that now.
Eh, just assign ratios to divide everyone's existing pools by and give everyone a mandatory free respec token. Episodes should mostly give that same ratio, and maybe have Exploration missions give either/or.

I don't actually support splitting the slider, though, or at least I wouldn't if cranking up the ground combat weren't more effective at knocking me out than sleeping pills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-04-2011, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
I disagree with splitting the difficulty sliders. In theory, provided you build a balanced character (balanced being an adequate amount of points smartly invested into both space and ground development), you should be able to handle the challenge of either arena with equal difficulty.
You're completely ignoring the fact that as of now, and most likely for the foreseeable future, there is a significant difference between the actual difficulty of enemies in space and on the ground. Nobody is getting one or two-shot by enemies in space.

While I know the devs have said that fixes are "coming soon" for the overpowered ground enemies, given the fact this has been a problem since they introduced the difficulty slider I'd rather see split sliders over trying to rework the ground enemies in the hope that this time they manage to get it right.

I don't see this as someone wanting to max out skills for space PVP and also dominate in PVE ground on Elite by having split difficulty sliders. Instead I believe it's about being able to enjoy the challenge of Elite in space without having to deal with the broken ground enemies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-04-2011, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trueheart
I don't see this as someone wanting to max out skills for space PVP and also dominate in PVE ground on Elite by having split difficulty sliders. Instead I believe it's about being able to enjoy the challenge of Elite in space without having to deal with the broken ground enemies.
I don't doubt this is true, but you can't ignore the fact that it would (using your example) allow people to max out skills for space PvP and also dominate PvE ground on elite. And, unfortunately (for this request), there are competitive areas of gameplay in both PvE and PvP.

And, again, I'm not crazy about the idea of supporting lopsided builds at the expense of balanced builds. I have what I feel is a balanced build between space and ground. As a result, I find elite difficulty in either area to be challenging and entertaining. Now, if people can shove all their points over into space or ground, and Cryptic attempts to scale Elite difficulty based on that idea, where does that leave players like me with less specialized builds? Probably pretty screwed and unable to play on Elite difficulty anymore. I'm having a difficult time feeling excited about that idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
The problem you're describing here isn't with not having separate difficulty sliders, but the idea that ground combat could be made more appealing. I think even the developers have mentioned numerous times that they would like to see the ground experience improved.

So, yes - if there were separate difficulty sliders, you could keep ground difficulty set to easy so you could breeze through it as quickly and painlessly as possible, but that's not actually fixing the real problem. It's just a way of letting you ignore the problem more easily.
Sure, having more interesting ground combat would fix it for a lot of people but not necessarily everyone. Some people are going to dislike one type of combat no matter what and given how divergent they are that's understandable. Separate difficulty sliders would allow people to customize the game for how they prefer to play.

Quote:
And Cryptic would also need to ensure that the PvP build could only be used in PvP matches. Otherwise you'll get players specing for two PvE builds (ground and space), or two PvP builds, or space PvE + space PvP and still complaining about ground PvE not having a separate difficulty slider.
Nah, just set limits on how and when you can switch builds. That way the second build isn't limited to PvP. Some people will use it for a PvP build and others can use it for a second PvE build (probably based around a different ship class).

I agree that you want to avoid people having a Space PvE build and a Ground PvE build so I would say limit it to only switching at stations. It would still be technically possible to switch builds before each mission if you wanted but the time spent traveling to do so eliminates any real advantage to doing so.

Quote:
Eh, just assign ratios to divide everyone's existing pools by and give everyone a mandatory free respec token. Episodes should mostly give that same ratio, and maybe have Exploration missions give either/or.
Sorry, I was unclear. I don't think there's a technical problem to splitting them but I do think that implementing such a major change to the skills setup at this point in the game's life-cycle is not something the devs are likely to do. Yes there are people (like me) who would cheer for it but I think we'd be outweighed by the people who would see it as a major nerf.

I think the only way that the devs could make it work without causing major complaints from players would be to make it so that our space skill points were equal to our current max skill points and then add ground skill points separately with a cap equal to something like 15%-20% of our current cap. That would be a major boost to our total skill points however which is why I doubt it'll happen.

EDIT: Just to explain the 15%-20% value given above. Assume we spend skill points on ground skills equivalent to 14 ranks in Lt skills, 14 ranks in LtC skills, 9 ranks in Cmdr, 9 in Capt and 5 in Admiral skills. That equates to 13,000 skill points or 17.8% of the current cap. That amount allows you to spend 7 points on both Lt Skills, 7 points in 2 of the three LtC skills and then put a decent number of ranks in 3 or 4 higher tier skills which should allow most characters to be reasonably good with both the innate skills and a particular kit (or possibly two kits if they are heavily related).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-04-2011, 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
I think the message here is that if you choose to specialize your build for PvP, you can't expect to have a great build (or great results) for the PvE side of the game. And anyone who plays MMO should be familiar with that setup.

Players with PvP-focused builds can still play the PvE side of the game, but they shouldn't expect to survive on the hardest difficulty settings for PvE content. That should be reserved for players who have focused on more balanced PvE builds, in my opinion.
Except that's not what you actually get in STO.

it's not a matter of "My PvP build isn't so good at PvE, luckily I can set the difficulty to normal instead of elite and still have a good experience". Instead you get:

"my PvP build has to be min/maxed or I'll be at a disadvantage against everyone who will min/max so my options are...
Normal:
Boring as Gre'thor in my specialty (the area I likely enjoy most), but alright in the area i used as my dump stat (the area I likely find less interesting)

Advanced:
Almost interesting in my specialty but still too easy, and just a bit to hard (frustrating) outside my specialty

Elite:
Fun within my specialty, but rage-quit levels of aggravating outside my specialty.

With two sliders It could instead be:
In my specialty: elite (lots of fun)
outside my specialty: normal (No bragging rites here, but at least it's fun and not a chore to complete these missions)"

In the end separate ground an space skill points would be the most elegant solution however. They could (I assume) easily enough add the new mechanic and do a forced respec. And it would do away with the problem of players being improbably strong in one area an hilariously week in another (the classic symptom of a min/max ed character).

Alternatively i suppose they could re-work the PvP system so that space and ground PvP are mixed together thus you can't neglect one or the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-04-2011, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combadge
I don't doubt this is true, but you can't ignore the fact that it would (using your example) allow people to max out skills for space PvP and also dominate PvE ground on elite. And, unfortunately (for this request), there are competitive areas of gameplay in both PvE and PvP.

And, again, I'm not crazy about the idea of supporting lopsided builds at the expense of balanced builds. I have what I feel is a balanced build between space and ground. As a result, I find elite difficulty in either area to be challenging and entertaining. Now, if people can shove all their points over into space or ground, and Cryptic attempts to scale Elite difficulty based on that idea, where does that leave players like me with less specialized builds? Probably pretty screwed and unable to play on Elite difficulty anymore. I'm having a difficult time feeling excited about that idea.
Ah but by your own argument earlier in the thread, you shouldn't expect the difficulty settings to conform you your preferred build choice.

Clearly the "elite" difficulty is meant for specialists and to take you generalist build and do just as well on elite as a specialist isn't any different from a PvP player expecting their PvP build to dominate in PvE.

You could after all simply lower the difficulty slider so that you are placed against challenges appropriate to the capabilities of your generalist build.

It seems to me your primary argument is that you belive the game should encourage generalist characters rather than specialist characters. Which unfortunately is very much at odds with the way the skill tree is currently designed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-04-2011, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
Ah but by your own argument earlier in the thread, you shouldn't expect the difficulty settings to conform you your preferred build choice.
Quite the contrary, I think I made it clear that I believe the game is better off supporting balanced builds rather than lopsided ones. So, yes, as I have chosen to create a balanced build with my character, obviously my expectation is to be covered in both space and ground areas of the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
Clearly the "elite" difficulty is meant for specialists and to take you generalist build and do just as well on elite as a specialist isn't any different from a PvP player expecting their PvP build to dominate in PvE.
Well, I was one of the players who argued heavily (against massive opposition, for some insane reason) for difficulty sliders in the first place. So, I disagree with your opinion here. I believe Elite difficulty is meant for players who have created balanced characters, coupled with players who have the gaming skills and familiarity with STO to back said characters up. I originally argued for an elite difficulty setting because both space and ground combat was ridiculously easy for me and the friends I play with. Never in those arguments did the idea of "specializing" in only one side of the game ever come up as a necessity to play on Elite mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
It seems to me your primary argument is that you belive the game should encourage generalist characters rather than specialist characters. Which unfortunately is very much at odds with the way the skill tree is currently designed.
I find a bit of amusements in the terms we choose. You say "generalist", and I say "balanced". You say "specialists" and I say "lopsided". I guess it depends on the point of view.

Regardless, I think you're incorrect in suggesting that the idea of creating a balanced character is very much at odds with the way the skill tree is designed. I think the skill tree simply allows you to create any type of character - we can call them "generalist" and "specialist" if you wish. We can also say the game gives you just enough freedom to hang yourself with if you decide to only focus on one skill area at the expense of another. After all, the skill tree will allow me to make myself a master of every space-weapon out there, but everything else about my ship and my character is going to suffer as a result of it. Heck, the skill tree will allow us to invest a majority of our skill points into skills that have absolutely nothing to do with our actual builds.

But, hey, the skill tree allows it, so it must be made a viable choice, right? I disagree with that. At some point we're arguing that the game should support every single possible playstyle regardless of how ridiculous the player choices are. The game doesn't force a player to invest all his points into space combat any more than it forces a tactical Captain in a Cruiser to invest all his skill points into science skills that are useless to him.

There is one difficulty slider, and it's linked to both space and ground combat. And, in PvE, the game actively throws both space and ground combat at the player. The game also provides players with space and ground PvP maps. So, let's think about that a moment while we decide what kind of build the game is actively encouraging. Personally, I'm going to go with "balanced", or "generalist", or "jack of all trades", or "well rounded", or "a Starfleet captain and crew with enough diversity to handle any situation" - any of those fit fine. And you can be the space specialist, damning the fact that not every problem can be fixed from the bridge of your starship.
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