Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 151
02-24-2011, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by V-Mink
You're making a slightly false equivalence (not 'false' as in 'you're lying,' but 'false' as in 'not really applicable.') Libya is a nation currently in turmoil because of a dictator who has abused their power for the better part of 30-40 years, shepherding a government that pretty much runs on corruption. It is an example of coercive force being applied in tragic and unconscionable ways. But any government, even the most benevolent, has to have some power of coercion upon its people in order to enforce laws.

An online community is not a nation. It is not a country that you are a citizen of; you can leave at any time and the forum mods do not have the power of life and death over you or the power to coerce you into giving them your money or your labor. You join it voluntarily and your life is not altered to any significant degree by taking it or leaving it. You accept the standards of that commmunity and the "laws" of the owners of it. There is nothing coercive about it; if you disagree with the way it is run, you can walk away and while you might be out the box price and subscription, you aren't going to be shot.

Now, I'm pretty sure you're not comparing StormShade to al-Qadaffi, or saying that a 25-point ban is the same as being firebombed by your nation's own air force or gunned down by mercenaries hired by your government. Libya is an extreme case -- albeit, sadly, not the only such case -- of the use of force in a coercive manner.



Yes, actually. I'm a part of several online communities that have congenial discussions and debates without it descending into WOWspeak and trollish memes. (I would expect that if there was an influx of trolls and the like then the moderators would pull out the banhammer.) So there really is no excuse for people to not have sane, coherent, rational discussions.

I'm getting the impression that you feel that since a community is going to have trolls present, then they should be tolerated and nothing done to them? I realize that's a rather silly stance, and surely not what you're suggested, but if you have proposed a solution then I apologize, I have not seen it mentioned here in this thread; could you repeat it?
I guess 'one word' wasn't enough. Sorry.
All i was saying was 'forcing people into acting a certain way doesn't work for long'. We are primates, after all. We don't do what is best. We could in simple situations, but the more complicated it gets, the more 'ansgst' is present.

Trolling is neither good nor bad. It has its purpose. They express themselves. Poorly, mind you, but it has its purpose.
You may be confusing "expressing" and "discussing", i think. They are not synonimous
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 152
02-24-2011, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
I guess 'one word' wasn't enough. Sorry.
All i was saying was 'forcing people into acting a certain way doesn't work for long'. We are primates, after all. We don't do what is best. We could in simple situations, but the more complicated it gets, the more 'ansgst' is present.

Trolling is neither good nor bad. It has its purpose. They express themselves. Poorly, mind you, but it has its purpose.
You may be confusing "expressing" and "discussing", i think. They are not synonimous
Well, I partly agree with you in that we are complicated beings. And we seem to be quite good at being contrary at the drop of a hat. But as I said before, I do not think this is quite that coercive. Nobody is holding a gun to our heads and saying 'Don't troll!' or threatening us with arrest and incarceration.

I do also provisionally agree that trolls are expressing themselves. However, the question then comes up, is trollish expression worth allowing? Does it provide anything to the community, even a counterpoint? I agree that there is a difference between expression and discussion; trolling falls flatly on the side of expression. The troll is not seeking to have a discussion. If anything, the troll is seeking to prevent discussion. At their worst, they are going out of their way to subvert discussion into nothing more than inflaming emotions and clouding a subject; discussion cannot take place in that sort of environment. So how is that a way of expressing one's self that is acceptable and should be tolerated in a community? Do you feel that trolls should be left unmoderated?

I disagree with the assertion that trolling is neither good nor bad, and on this we will probably have to agree that we disagree. I would maintain that trolling is antithetical to the purpose of a community, and should therefore not be tolerated. There is no use for trolling except to derail a conversation and get someone else upset and angry. (Which is useful if you are engaging in some sort of conflict with them, but if that's the case, that is still not what a community is for.) As I said, a troll is not providing a counterpoint; a troll is not giving an unpopular point of view; a troll is not trying to raise awareness about an issue; a troll is not attempting an argument in reducto ad absurdiam. A troll enjoys getting a rise out of people and making them angry, and without moderator action is effectively immune to the consequences of their actions. (Even WITH moderator action, the troll suffers no consequences for their actions.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 153
02-24-2011, 10:07 AM
Staran, you are speaking in general and misconstruing it to apply to a specific case.

You're essentially saying, "We're primates. Primates throw poo. Therefore there's no reason to wear a nice suit to this staff meeting. I'll just show up in my underwear and throw poo."

Forcing people to act a certain way does work for long. It works for their entire lives. Like anything it can be taken to extremes and that's when people revolt. Using politics is just as much an incorrect analogy as the earlier use of felony convictions was.

A better analogy is security guards at that staff meeting. You can remain calm and discuss the subject, or you can act up and be escorted out of the building.

Using force, in this case infracting and then banning repeat offenders, does do good. It greatly reduces the signal-to-noise ratio. This increases the amount of useful information the community people can bring to the devs.

I maintain that Trolling has no good and no useful purpose. In any event it is and will remain against the rules. Trying to argue that the rules shouldn't be as they are is outside of the scope of this thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 154
02-24-2011, 10:11 AM
No one in this thread is "right" or "wrong". All this discussion about what constitutes an adult or acceptable behavior for society in general is opinion based and does not actually "prove" anything. The only real fact of the matter is that this is Cryptic's forum, so they get to decide the rules. Whether we agree with those rules really doesnt matter since they have the power to enforce them and we have no power to resist that enforcement.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 155
02-24-2011, 10:14 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which derails this thread - please stay on topic. ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 156
02-24-2011, 10:19 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which derails this thread - please stay on topic. ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 157
02-24-2011, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP3CTREnyc
Could this thread be considered Trolling? It seems to have:
Trolling has to do with the intent, not the effect. As long as something is not intended to upset people, then it is not trolling even if it does.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 158
02-24-2011, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
I stand by my original premise that I dont' think a messageboard is what Cryptic needs to deal with customers or potential customers.
While you might be correct, that's beside the point.

The fact is that Cryptic does have a forum and this thread is not about whether or not it should have a forum. There may one day exist a thread about whether or not Cryptic should have a forum, but that is not this thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 159
02-24-2011, 10:38 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which derails this thread - please stay on topic. ~WishStone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 160
02-24-2011, 10:39 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which derails this thread - please stay on topic. ~WishStone
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:26 AM.