Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-26-2011, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pr1983 View Post
i really hope you're not (and if i am wrong, then apologies) suggesting that the cryptic team is sexist.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as 'sexist', but I think they're guilty of perpetuating some pretty unhealthy gender roles.

That said, what word /would/ you use for 'repeatedly and constantly enforcing gender stereotypes by applying a different treatment to each'?

It's okay for the ladies to show a little skin, that's just sexy and playful, but the men have to be /all/ business?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeanneArac
I'm not sure I'd go as far as 'sexist', but I think they're guilty of perpetuating some pretty unhealthy gender roles.

That said, what word /would/ you use for 'repeatedly and constantly enforcing gender stereotypes by applying a different treatment to each'?

It's okay for the ladies to show a little skin, that's just sexy and playful, but the men have to be /all/ business?
to be honest, i don't think they're enforcing anything.

women in the game (as far as npc's go for starters) are treated exceptionally well and with great respect, even handing out missions and being tough bosses (if what i've heard about the stf's are true).

now, if you're talking about players, then again, i don't think they're enforcing anything. people asked for the open-shirted uniform in the poll, so that was what cryptic tried to do (even if they failed to an extent (sorry guys)). why isn't there a male variant, you ask? probably because the most famous open jacket uniform in star trek is picard's, and they knew that the fanbase wanted it. they're not showing bias towards anyone; they're giving the majority of paying customers what they asked for based on feedback. women even have more options, as they can do the picard thing or show skin. the men can't do that, and are stuck for the most part with a single undershirt.

is it necessarily fair? maybe not, but to assume it's intentionally gender biased is doing a dis-service to the people who make the game.

personally, i wanted the paul porter (who knows who that is) open collar variant to my uniform, but that's me.

how long do you really think it's going to be before we get a ripped kirk shirt? we're already geting the green wraparound, and that's not even close to being "all business".

(sorry, tangent based on your earlier post) as far as the breast slider being ridiculous? it's not. there are women who (unfortunately for their backs) developed large breasts even from their early teens. they may even want to play this game. boobs come in all shapes and sizes, large and small. having the slider means that not every woman has to have the exact same size (which they really shouldnt, because players would never agree on a default size), and it means that women like that (a couple of which i actually know) could play this game and have an avatar they felt fairly represented them. its also a much better system than having to put every cup size in the game (because that simply wouldn't cover it).

either way, you think they're enforcing gender stereotypes; i don't. if you have genuine concerns, i'm sure stormshade or someone else would be more than willing to address them.

i just think you should do something like that before you start accusing them of doing something that they (in fairness) might not actually be doing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-26-2011, 08:52 AM
You all seem to be forgetting the poll that Cryptic had a few months ago. In that poll, they offered the "Open Jacket" as one of the options. This jacket had no undershirt, yet it was clearly the most popular option.

You can view the poll for yourself here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=173042


Now, I do agree that women should have the option of an undershirt, just as the men should have the option of no undershirt. But don't blame Cryptic for giving the majority what they wanted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-26-2011, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pr1983 View Post
people asked for the open-shirted uniform in the poll, so that was what cryptic tried to do (even if they failed to an extent (sorry guys)).
ahem... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-26-2011, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeanneArac
In my ideal world this would extend to allowing male toons to wear every thing the females could - up to and including 'cross-dressing' - this is a liberal Utopia, after all... But since I think Cryptic is rightfully afraid of a conservative backlash in that case... we at least deserve some man-beef! Where's Ricardo Montalban's chest-revealing attire? Hell, why not extend the option to go bare-chested to every male of every species as an off-Duty option?
I have seen games where this is allowed. It sounds like fun until EVERYONE rolls a seven foot tall morbidly obese purple-skinned male toon and thinks it's just too clever to let them run around in a thong and bug-eye sunglasses. No thanks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-26-2011, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg316 View Post
I am really disappointed in the female open jacket options. Closed, they are wearing shirts. Opened, the shirts disappear. Seriously???

I was actually disgusted by the amount of "skin" displayed on the female characters who are supposed to be Starfleet Officers. I was expecting something more professional, not the start of a striptease. We're not all 14 yr old hormone-jumping kids playing this game. Whoever approved this costume for females needs to take a step back and realize the EPIC-FAIL and make some changes asap.
Are you from the 1920s?

OT I disagree that Cryptic's sexist, I also disagree that they are perpuating/enforcing female stereotypes since there is a range of modest clothing options available and players are the ones who choose their outfits and whether their own character is "dignified" or "sexy". If you want actual outright unabashed sexism and stereotyping look at TERA Online in which the only clothing(calling that stuff armour is a bad joke) available to females is pretty much fantasy roleplay stripper gear, forcing female characters into sexual objectification no matter what the player wants, now that's something that is disgusting and not overblown sillyness about 14 yr olds and hormones. The omission of an undershirt option for females in the 2409 open jackets does need to be corrected though. Frankly I want more cleavage shown, it's pretty minimal atm, but the ESRB are silly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-26-2011, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Are you from the 1920s?
Nope. I just managed to keep a standard of morality. What purpose does this particular set serve they way Cyptic did it for the female avatars? The only good I can think of to say is some of the other open jackets actually do have a shirt still.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-26-2011, 10:13 AM
Showing skin is immoral? Or is it the amount of skin? Or is it the nature of the amount of skin?

Does it become okay if the skin showing option is for both genders, or is it specifically bad because the women have it? If it's the later, than aren't you just as bad for saying something is 'okay' for one gender, but not okay for the other? Obviously there are standards that need to be kept - and Cryptic keeps those by following the ESRB and doing their best to keep a healthy rating.

Ultimately, this is not Cryptic's grand plan to be sexist or amoral. This was a costume design that was on a magazine cover. Costume options were posted in a poll. This was one of the ones that won. They went out of their way to go add other options to other characters - they made a decidedly female-only cleavage-showing 'sexy' outfit into a costume package for both genders as well as having multiple options.

You'll never be rid of the costume options. People paid for them because they wanted them. And people wanted them because they thought it was "sexy", I'm sure - but the options are there, and I'm sure you could come up with some creative character reasons why you would or might have them, if you were so inclined.

Honestly, the best compromise is the solutions offered previous. There should be shirtless options for men under their uniforms, and there should be shirt options for women.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-26-2011, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyg316 View Post
Nope. I just managed to keep a standard of morality. What purpose does this particular set serve they way Cyptic did it for the female avatars? The only good I can think of to say is some of the other open jackets actually do have a shirt still.
Your standard appears to be a bit judgemental and narrow, "start of a strip tease" really? You don't think that's a bit excessive?

The purpose it serves is to generate revenue and increase customisation options, same as everything else in the cstore. People saw the jackets on the front of pcgamer, wanted them...and got a poor excuse for them, but Cryptic still gets some sales and they look a little bit like the blue alien cover so it's almost okay.

I bought the current version but only as I was buying new character slots and had points to spare, maybe later they'll be able to add OJs more like the PCgamer cover.

Also seconding the post of the person above me ST.

I apologise for the harsh tones of my posts but I really do think you're OTT on this, so it's unfortunately necessary.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Quote:
OT I disagree that Cryptic's sexist, I also disagree that they are perpuating/enforcing female stereotypes since there is a range of modest clothing options available and players are the ones who choose their outfits and whether their own character is "dignified" or "sexy"
I don't for the minute think this is planned - but nor for a second do I believe this is entirely unconscious. Players are /not/ the ones who choose because male toons /are simply not given that option/.

And I'm very sorry if there are those in this thread that don't see the innate gender bias involved - or want to blunt the issue by raising far more egregious examples of sexism in the video game industry - but I fear that is precisely because it has became an expected cultural norm for women to dress in a fashion that would be unacceptable to most if a man were to do it.
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