Lt. Commander
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# 21
03-01-2011, 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepidox View Post
sorry, but they came from earth. just because you don't agree doesn't mean it should be changed.
As previously pointed out, that was not actually stated, just speculated. I agree that anything stated on the screen is canon, but this was not.
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# 22
03-01-2011, 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Again, who they heck said they lived someplace close to Earth?
In the novel Before Dishonor, Pluto is "absorbed" by the evolved Borg, who literally devour the planet and its associated satellites en route to attacking Earth. Meaning no evidence!
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# 23
03-01-2011, 05:40 PM
OP, I don't see what the big deal is. So what if you personally don't care for the explanation? That is unfourtunately the explanation, insofar as the show is concerned. And it's a little presumptuous of you to think that this is an issue that needs to be "remedied".
I think the Voth have a decent enough history, all things considered. And, as our resident chemists and metallurgists have indicated, there's plenty of ways for an advanced civilization to have all evidence of their existence wiped out in, you know, a few freakin' million years, give or take, lol.
Plus, all in all, it's a sci-fi TV show. One that has infamously contradicted itself over the years. Just relax about it, I say, and enjoy the ride.
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# 24
03-01-2011, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThetaNine
how do you know it's not solid somewhere under all those clouds?
Because it's less dense than water? Even if there were some surface down there somewhere (It being more or less confirmed that there's not), it's going to be under so much pressure that nothing (and certainly nothing humanoid) could possibly survive there.
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# 25
03-01-2011, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Advanced civilizations would likely never limit themselves to living only on a small portion of the available land. The thing so would be ridiculous. That's like humans only living in California when everything else is available. They'd have cities around the globe.
This assumes they would expand around the Globe. Mankind has, but that doesn't mean all intelligent species do. Not to mention the fact that as we've expanded we've never had to deal with, say, Tyrannosaurs? I bet had the ancient explorers who "discovered" North America found Tyrannosaurs wandering about, they wouldn't have revisited, much less built colonies. Your assumption that all civilizations behave and prioritize like Humanities has is a bit Human-centric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Not all of the earth has been destroyed by tectonic movements and the like.. Some of the earth has been untouched for millions of years. Yes, since the dinosaurs. It's impossible that all of the cities and stuff would be destroyed because not near all of the earth's land has.
Again, this assumes a world-wide civilization. Picture a civilization limiting itself to an area roughly the same size as South America. Imagine they decide to leave, all of them. Imagine how much of their civilization would be broken down and recycled for use in constructing the ships, now imagine nature having it's way for 30 million years or so with what remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Advanced civilizations will most likely NOT have houses made of mud but instead of steel and other metals which WOULD leave evidence on land. They wouldn't be in perfect shape or anything but there would be some minute amounts of evidence at least. Like globs of certain elements and mineral sand very specific patters. Ancient cities don't last long because they were made of mud, rocks and even grasses.
Steel rusts, the only evidence it would leave would be Iron-rich soil. Concrete becomes dust becomes sedimentary rock. Chemical process' break down artificial materials. Heck, even non-biodegradable materials (like plastics) break down from erosion and compression and chemical decay.

Everything we have of human settlements is, at most, twenty thousand years old. Who's to say what would become of our civilization after millions of years. That much time can break down nearly anything. Now, I'd bet there would be fossils of some of their creations, but even those would be so few and far between that we might not have any evidence of it.

In Trek canon, humanity went from stone knives and bear skins to warp propulsion in twenty thousand years. if the Voth evacuated Earth as soon as they could, or even hung around twice as long, that's a window of only forty thousand years they would be leaving any evidence of a technological civilization.

There are species of Dinosaur we have only partial skeletons of, and those individual examples are separated by millions of years. It's expecting to find evidence of a single species that only hung around inside 100 thousand years of a million year window that is implausible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 26
03-01-2011, 05:48 PM
Bad post sorry!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT01 View Post
OP, I don't see what the big deal is. So what if you personally don't care for the explanation? That is unfourtunately the explanation, insofar as the show is concerned. And it's a little presumptuous of you to think that this is an issue that needs to be "remedied".
I think the Voth have a decent enough history, all things considered. And, as our resident chemists and metallurgists have indicated, there's plenty of ways for an advanced civilization to have all evidence of their existence wiped out in, you know, a few freakin' million years, give or take, lol.
Plus, all in all, it's a sci-fi TV show. One that has infamously contradicted itself over the years. Just relax about it, I say, and enjoy the ride.
nail, meet head
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# 28
03-01-2011, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
An advanced civilization would never be able to have all the evidence lost on it.

1) Advanced civilizations would likely never limit themselves to living only on a small portion of the available land. The thing so would be ridiculous. That's like humans only living in California when everything else is available.
They'd have cities around the globe.

2) Not all of the earth has been destroyed by tectonic movements and the like.. Some of the earth has been untouched for millions of years. Yes, since the dinosaurs. It's impossible that all of the cities and stuff would be destroyed because not near all of the earth's land has.

3) Advanced civilizations will most likely NOT have houses made of mud but instead of steel and other metals which WOULD leave evidence on land. They wouldn't be in perfect shape or anything but there would be some minute amounts of evidence at least. Like globs of certain elements and mineral sand very specific patters.
Ancient cities don't last long because they were made of mud, rocks and even grasses.

Now, if for some reason this WARP CAPABLE civilization didn't leave the freakin' "now under the tectonic plate" peninsula and only made their buildings and tech out of mud then maybe it's possible. But that's just stupid and completely implausible.
There's also the issue that, if there was an industrialized world civilization for a prolonged period of time, we'd see weird abnormalities in the fossil record, with seemingly well-adapted species vanishing overnight in the face of minor environmental changes, the spontaneous emergence of species from different continents in areas they could not have migrated to (like South American terror birds in Europe), and the sudden appearance of archaic species from the Mesozoic (from the sunken island continent the Voth come from).

I suppose there is wiggle room for this in the story. After all, we only met up with Prof. Gegen once he was on Voyager's trail. We never found out all the ins and outs of his evolutionary theory, or even what the mainstream Voth doctrine is. It could be that a Preserver origin story is entirely possible; the Voth were transplanted to the Delta Quadrant millions of years ago, they went into space, developed the doctrine, and Gegen found some anomalies in the fossil record (and maybe a few Preserver artifacts) that convinced him to look for any trends in galactic species distribution regarding Voth-resembling DNA, and got lucky by stumbling onto a human ship.

You know, polish this up and it might make a fine novel.
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# 29
03-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
This assumes they would expand around the Globe
It's the safest assumption. There's no logical reason why an intelligent species would ignore 90%+ of the globe. You cannot make the safest assumptions based on what ifs but only what you know. Scientifically speaking it's considerably less likely that a species would ignore a huge portion of the globe or use mud huts when they're capable of so much more.

Some grounds on this Earth as basically undisturbed too and have been for millions of years. Any giant freakin' future cities would leave decomposed patterns that would be very unique and impossible in nature as well as the possibility that they'd decompose into things that would also be impossible to exist naturally in nature.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 30
03-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malashenko89 View Post
There's also the issue that, if there was an industrialized world civilization for a prolonged period of time, we'd see weird abnormalities in the fossil record, with seemingly well-adapted species vanishing overnight in the face of minor environmental changes, the spontaneous emergence of species from different continents in areas they could not have migrated to (like South American terror birds in Europe), and the sudden appearance of archaic species from the Mesozoic (from the sunken island continent the Voth come from).

I suppose there is wiggle room for this in the story. After all, we only met up with Prof. Gegen once he was on Voyager's trail. We never found out all the ins and outs of his evolutionary theory, or even what the mainstream Voth doctrine is. It could be that a Preserver origin story is entirely possible; the Voth were transplanted to the Delta Quadrant millions of years ago, they went into space, developed the doctrine, and Gegen found some anomalies in the fossil record (and maybe a few Preserver artifacts) that convinced him to look for any trends in galactic species distribution regarding Voth-resembling DNA, and got lucky by stumbling onto a human ship.

You know, polish this up and it might make a fine novel.
I like you. You're a good guy. You listen to logic and reasoning and are open to possibilities.
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