Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
02-08-2011, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
What's more, that's from Voyager, a series in which the writers butchered the Borg canon as a way to keep Voyager alive.

But I agree with the OP, and as I have said in many other threads, the Borg need to be terrifying again.
I disagree, I don't think Voyager took the Borg away from canon. Until Voyager, the Borg were always in Federation space, away from the Queen....Voyager brought the Federation to the Collective...this allowed
the "relationship" to be different. First Contact had some of this between the Queen and the Enterprise crew
but the drones were just as they always were....just as in Voyager they were as they had always been.

But yes, they do need to be tweaked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
02-21-2011, 11:11 PM
i really like Katic's ideas
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
02-24-2011, 12:02 PM
Why cant we just have a fleet action or STF where we go up against a Tactical cube or a really big normal cube, that way i doesnt get in the way of preexisting missions but people (like me) can get the thrill of having a fleet engage the borg ala first contact and hopefully not like best of both worlds
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
03-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Wow I can't believe all the nerd rage over 'cannon' that appeared in this thread, someone should really clean it up

However from the few things not releated to that it seems like we'd all like a fleet action involving a borg cube and it would be fun to make it co-op allowing klingon forces to assist as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 65
03-02-2011, 08:21 AM
I for one say forget the Borg! I want to see the ingame battle between Katic and Doogie. I'll round up the ferengi bookies and start taking bets on that outcome
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
03-02-2011, 12:07 PM
Katic, Doogie, you've done it now. This discussion has pulled a 400+-Day Lurker out of the woodworks.

I have thoroughly loved you two's back-and-forth. Surprised that my opinion on the matter actually shifted several timed during the read-through. Such firey nerd debates warm my cold heart and I am reminded of when I would engage in such spirited banter about such things.

Everyone here is a Trek fan. Granted.
Everyone here is well-versed in trek lore. Granted? I think so.

I fall under the category of Trek fan known as the "Ship Geek," just as I feel the two of you do.

The rising problem here is that "Ship Geek" is further broken down into the, for lack of better terms, "What You See Is What You Get" ship geeks, and the "What You Hear (or read) Is What You Get" Ship Geeks.


If you look at the Bird of Prey from Star Trek 3, as it faces off against the Enterprise, it appears to be of an equivalent, or near-equivalent size. However, that very same ship is shown to be just a little bigger than a small whaling ship in the next movie. So, either that waling ship is huge (and is crewed by giants) or the Enterprise is small, (and crewed by midgets).

This also becomes problematic when you look at the Defiant. Where it can only dock nose-on at the larger docking platforms at DS9, it is shown as being less than half the width of the Excelcior-class's Stardrive Section when it strafes along it's legnth during the episode "Defiant", when Thomas Riker stole it. With these two instances, it is logical to conclude that the Excelsior is about as long if not longer than the width of DS9.

So, we have to accept that the wySiwyg approach is not entirely applicable. Scaling the same model for dramatic effect does not mean that the result is another ship. (otherwise, the ship that witnessed the original E's death isn't the same one that served as a cetatian temporal delivery service.) As such, the same cube seen in First Contact could (but not nescicarilly) be the same in-trek size at the ones portrayed in Endgame, but were shown on screen to be far less imposing to the Voyager's enhanced capabilities. As such, you cannot trust what was shown on screen to infer that the Engame Cubes were smaller. However, if you do take the images as cannon, using the wySiwyg philosophy, it is clear that they are of different sizes.


You have to give her credit for a well layed out explanation on how one can infer relative size without absolute measurements. This is done all the time. The instance of your brother holding the sun makes perfect inferral sense; that is I can inferr that it is behind him, far away, and large based on other facts that I know about the sun and the average human height. If he was standing behind the sun however, we'd instantly know something was amiss. This simple concept is the basis of her rebuttal. In those shots, a cube is seen, in it's entirety, closer to the screen than the Voyager, of which we know the size. The only way that that viewpoint can be accomplished is by having a smaller cube. If we take what is shown on screen seriously, that is, with the wySiswyg philosophy, then we have to conclude that the cubes shown in this scene cannot be the size of the one in "best of both worlds."

Now, if we choose to ignore the visuals of Star Trek, and only pay attention to the Dialog, then, yes, it would be logical to conclude that the borg have only one standard size cube class. (Assuming they are like the Federation and every ship of a class is of identical make.) However, it could be said either that Data's cat Spot is a shape changer since the feline shown in the different episodes changes breed, or that Data is a poor pet owner and has gone through many cats, each he named Spot. However, looking just at the dialog, there is no way to indicate that there is anything odd at all about the cat, and in fact could be concluded that it is the same feline. (Artistic liscence per the director feeling that Data wouldn't have a Somali, he needs an American short-hair orange tabby instead.) So, to a lesser extent, what you Hear is what you get isn't entirely foolproof either.

You want to talk about cannon, let's look at the Captian's Yacht. Untill the film "Insurrection" this aux. craft was nothing but soft cannon. It was mentioned in the Next Gen Tech Manual, explaining the odd circle-in-parethesis shape at the bottom of the hull, but never seen or mentioned once in the run of Star Trek. Then it jumped the soft to hard cannon divide when it appeared in that decent-but-not-that-great film. It also has not, to my knowledge, been mentioned sense. Here's my question. Cannon-wise, does the Galaxy-Class have a Captian's Yacht? The answer is that while it is logical to conclude that it does, we don't actually know for certian that this is the case. Any future confirmation of either possibility would make sense.

The same has to be concluded about the borg sizes. Right now, it is arguable (clearly) what all sizes and types of cubes exist. If in the future there is a movie in the prime universe (unlikely) showing Picard onboard the Enterprise-E approaching three cubes, one clearly much larger than the other, and B-4/Data saying, "Captian, the large one is identical in size and demention to the ones encountered at J-25, and responsible for Wolf 359. The smaller two match the dementions of the ones reported destroyed via transphasic torpedo by the U.S.S. Voyager during her encounter with the borg transwarp hub on stardate..." "That's enough Data, thank you."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
03-02-2011, 12:42 PM
Oh, and I also agree with the original point of this thread. The borg are not as nerve-rattling unnerving as they used to be.

I agree that the ground combat needs to nix the ranged weapons, and grant the borg resistance vs damage type. Not just the one attacked, but all borg on the map. Forcing you to change to a different weapon type, between ingagements, or equiping all of your crew with different type of weapons.

When I first heard that there was going to be Borg ins STO, I never imagined that I could survive a long hand-to-hand combat with a borg. They should have a melee attack that if it crits, it instantly infects, turning the target into a borg. Gameplay, I'd have been incapacitated with no chance of respawn, and a drone ressed in my place. Or, I watch with an "Infected!" window in lieu of an "Incapacitated" window as my character walks around attacking other players and bridge officers. If someone attacks me, they can heal me if they have a nano-vaccine or something. If I rezz, I might even see a recently spawned borg wearing my chosen uniform. Maybe a mission where this happens unlocks the borg bridge officer or liberated borg.

Just ideas.

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