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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 371
03-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathkittin View Post
Issue is not just that it causes crashes, but when it is enabled and doesn't crash, it has no effect, meaning the game looks a lot worse on ATI cards because it's missing dynamic lighting...

In Cryptic's own words:
"If you're playing without dynamic lighting, I'm sad for you :) [..]dynamic lighting is tied to a lot of our high end art features"
--Mike Apolis, Lead Environment Artist, Cryptic Studios, 6th March 2010
Quote:
[00:35] <Cryptic_Mapolis> but yeah, interiors are a bit lackluster compared to space. We're aware of that, and I believe they will improve over time
[00:35] <deathkittin> oh that's great
[00:35] <deathkittin> I played city of heroes and it looks far too similar considering its about 10 years later
[00:36] <deathkittin> got a 5870 graphics card mass effect and fallout 3 look amazing
[00:36] <deathkittin> and the space parts in this :)
[00:37] <deathkittin> any idea what's with the tribbles on the tribble planet?
[00:37] <deathkittin> they look completely different from the ones you hold, they don't have the fluffy texture
[00:37] <deathkittin> it's like they put in the player held ones later after or something
[00:37] <deathkittin> I have everything on max
[00:38] <Cryptic_Mapolis> the graphics on the ground were challenging mostly because they require more resources from the CPU and GPU, so we had to make them scaleable so low end machines could still run the game. That alone meant we had to cut back on the detail
[00:38] <deathkittin> the tribbles on tribble planet look kinda like plants
[..]
00:41] <Cryptic_Mapolis> as far as those tribbles, I dunno, I personally haven't seen that map :(
01[00:42] <deathkittin> aw it's lovely apart from that
01[00:42] <deathkittin> tribbles everywhere
01[00:42] <deathkittin> ticket 717116
01[00:42] <deathkittin> "On this map you get to see tribbles outside of a player held object for the first time, but they look wrong - the ones in this map 'Minas Korva Outpost' ('The Tribble with Klingons' episode) don't look fluffy at all unlike the player object held ones... they look kind of plant-like instead like the artist didn't know they were drawing something alive and someone animated to make them act like tribbles afterwards
01[00:42] <deathkittin> - they really should be fluffy! At the very least on high/maximum graphics settings like I do (if that's why they were made like this for consoles or something) "
[00:43] <Cryptic_Mapolis> I dont know why they're not fluffy, it shouldn't be that way
01[00:43] <deathkittin> mm, its really raelly noticable when you see your own one compared to them
[00:43] <Cryptic_Mapolis> but I remember overhearing something about having to scale the tribbles up so they can have large piles of them without going over our polygon budgets :)
01[00:43] <deathkittin> you can actually pick up the tribbles in the mission too from the clumps inside the mission
01[00:44] <deathkittin> and when you hold them they look completely different from how they did before
01[00:44] <deathkittin> inside the lab part of it
01[00:44] <deathkittin> ah you mean scale down :(
[00:44] <Cryptic_Mapolis> hmm. that sounds crappy. I'll look into it
01[00:44] <deathkittin> cool!
01[00:44] <deathkittin> I understand totally that you have to make it be able to work with a range of GPUs, but shouldn't the high res textures be saved for when you put it to maximum?
01[00:46] <deathkittin> not sure if you've played fallout 3 there's loads of demand for high res textures
01[00:46] <deathkittin> e.g. http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1662
01[00:47] <deathkittin> if you click the file one it says 24,645 downloads just on that one, there's tonnes of stuff like that on that site
[00:49] <Cryptic_Mapolis> our system allows us to improve textures if we see the need
01[00:49] <deathkittin> ooh, that's awesome
[00:49] <Cryptic_Mapolis> if we get a lot of reports from users who feel the textures in a particular environment are too low rez, we can definitely rectify that
[..]
[01:07] <deathkittin> I bought my card because it's the current top-performing one, I don't care about brands, I know you have that "nvidia the way it's meant to be played" thing on the game but it's really not on to support one manufacturer over another
[01:07] <deathkittin> same kind of practices that got microsoft into trouble
[01:08] <deathkittin> it's definitely well up to spec for dynamic lighting or anything that can be thrown at it really apart from when it seems like it hasn't been tested on ATI cards at all... http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9176/screenshot139r.jpg :/
[..]
[01:25] <Cryptic_Mapolis> if you're playing without dynamic lighting, I'm sad for you :)
[01:25] <deathkittin> This is from Fallout 3 again: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8683/screenshot210t.jpg and http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/748/screenshot212x.jpg - If STO had better indoor graphics (the outside planet ones look lovely mostly) I think the borg missions could have that kind of "epic" atmosphere, it'd be something not a lot of multiplayer online games had apart from perhaps Left 4 Dead, it's already a bit like that compared to say games like ******** but if you went further I think people'd love it and the critics would be a lot happier too
[01:25] <Cryptic_Mapolis> dynamic lighting is tied to a lot of our high end art features

If Cryptic's development is not biased towards nVidia because of their bribery/"sponsorship" (startrekonline.com has the same "NVIDIA THE WAY ITS MEANT TO BE PLAYED" branding logo on every single page at the bottom and on the game) then why (from all accounts and in your own videos such as Expanding Universe, Part 1 and Part 2 videos, Exploration, Combat, etc) does the game actually look much better than it does on top-spec ATI graphics cards?
Quote:
From www.startrekonline.com/chat ( when you are connected and see people talking in the default room, type /join #stoQA ):

Session Start: Wed Mar 17 20:27:49 2010
Session Ident: #stoqa
[20:27] * Now talking in #stoqa
[20:27] * Topic is ' Star Trek Online Quality Assurance channel - Rules apply: http://bit.ly/97uqa | Showstopper thread at http://bit.ly/6HZyy7 | Server: UP'
[..]
[21:04] <deathkittin> hmm what I want to know is you know those 2 new videos on www.startrekonline.com/videos ? What computer/graphics card is that running because it looks way better than mine, and I am running it on all maximum quality (it's a radeon 5870 card which is actually the top performing card available I know that because I researched my new computer before buying carefully)
[21:05] <deathkittin> is there like some secret dev high quality mode for taking videos
[21:05] <deathkittin> or has it been retouched mercilessly :p
[21:05] <Torenn> hmmm the site says march 25...
[21:05] <~syberghost> Nvidia.
[21:13] <deathkittin> so the game really looks like that on nvidia cards?
[21:13] <Blademage> yah its close to what i have atm

[21:13] <deathkittin> ok that is BS
[21:13] <Blademage> its a higher end card of course, i doubt sli, prolly a dual card
[21:14] <deathkittin> no my card is the top end one available
[21:14] <deathkittin> i researched carefully before I bought a PC cos I'm not an expert
[21:14] <Blademage> hmm
[21:14] <deathkittin> it scores at top of all benchmarks
[21:14] <deathkittin> radeon 5870
[21:14] <Blademage> yah but ATI seems to be getting alot of trouble
[21:14] <deathkittin> not including cards that are more than one card on the same one
[21:14] <deathkittin> it's actually the best card available and works great in other games
[21:15] <deathkittin> so why does Cryptic seem to be playing favourites maybe it's that "Nvidia the way it's meant to be played" advertising they were paid off?
[..]
[21:16] <deathkittin> it's not a case of FPS though
[21:16] <deathkittin> I have it all on maximum settings
[21:16] <deathkittin> and it just doesn't look anywhere near as good as those 2 videos
[21:16] <Blademage> im on medium settings and im rly close to that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Computer.Ed View Post
SuperCrypticDave,

The above post brings up a very interesting point. Since STO is by the use of this logo optimized for nVidia cards, could this be the reason for the issues? Could it be that the code for the Dynamic lighting is optimized for a single platform of card and thus has issues due to this?
↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 372
03-05-2011, 04:25 AM
Wait, so Dynamic Lighting doesn't actually do anything on AMD/ATI cards? Seriously? That's got to be a joke.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 373
03-05-2011, 07:06 AM
ran the test several times now with 5 lights but just got a windows error message once"gameclient.exe stopped working"

CPU: 2199 Mhz (2/2 cores) / RAM: 4094 MBs (1602 free) / Video Card: AMD Radeon HD 6800 Series / Driver Ver: 7.14.10.812 / OS Ver: 6.1.7601 / VidMem: 1024 MBs
Acceptable video card driver

1680x1050 Direct3D9 Windowed Vsync:Off RenderSize:1680x1050
DynLights:1 Textures:10.0/10.0 WorldDetail:2.00 TerrainDetail:3.00 EntityDetail:1.75 MaxLightsPerObj:5 MaxShadowedLights:3 Aniso:8 PreloadMats:1 BloomQuality:2
RenderThread:1 FRStabilizer:0 HighDetail:1 HighFillDetail:0 Scattering:0 SSAO:1 DXTNonPow2:1 HighQualityDOF:0
SoftParticles:1 FXQuality:2 LightingQuality:10 MaxReflection:2 2BoneSkinng:0 MSAA:2 GPUFaPa:1 MaxDebris:100 PoissonShad:1 BloomMul:0.8 MinDepthBiasFix:0
HigherTailor:1 PerFrameSleep:0 MaxFPS:60 LenseFlare:2
EnabledFeatures: SHADOWS POSTPROCESSING DOF WATER

Version: ST.11.20110224a.14 (SVN 112695(http://code/svn/StarTrek/Baselines/S...0224a.0(branch svn = 112995)) Gimme 02241122:23:43)(+incrs) In-game Time:1.7
Demo playback finished 5791 frames in 266.556s (21.725 fps, 46.0 ms/f).
Min/Max/Avg:
objects_in_scene: 63 / 851 / 238
opaque_objects_drawn: 245 / 1449 / 551
alpha_objects_drawn: 18 / 347 / 129
total_objects_drawn: 263 / 1796 / 680
triangles_in_scene: 17224 /233063 / 62367
opaque_triangles_drawn: 70481 /645850 /236274
alpha_triangles_drawn: 456 /114392 / 26178
total_triangles_drawn: 70937 /760242 /262452
total_skeletons: 6 / 23 / 14
drawn_skeletons: 0 / 17 / 7
drawn_skeleton_shadows: 0 / 20 / 11
cell_zoculls: 0 / 15 / 6
entry_zoculls: 17 / 960 / 274
terrain_zoculls: 0 / 0 / 0
welded_instance_culls: 0 / 0 / 0
fps: 1.3 / 61.1 / 23.2
ms: 16.4 / 794.2 / 46.0
time_misc: -32.9 / 66.3 / 6.3
time_draw: -17.8 / 39.9 / 1.6
time_queue: -18.2 / 25.8 / 0.2
time_queue_world: -16.9 / 67.4 / 3.5
time_anim: -13.8 / 70.2 / 10.6
time_wait_gpu: -28.1 / 740.0 / 23.3
time_net: -18.4 / 47.6 / 0.1
mem_usage_mbs: 633 / 671 / 654
98th percentile ms/f: 56 (17.9 fps)
stalls: 228 / 14.21s
frames GPU bound: 5648 (97.8%)
perf budget frames over: 0 (0.0%)
mem budget frames over: 0 (0.0%)
Load time: 36.79s


I'm experimenting with different settings now
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 374
03-05-2011, 03:55 PM
I'm having graphical issues including completely wrong rendering of structures and asteroids which make the game unplayable. The game doesn't crash, but I can't play it. Changes to settings (both in-game and in the video card menu) do not solve the problem. Nothing changes, actually (in terms of the problem getting better/worse).

ATI Radeon HD 4650 PCI-E 1GB
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 375
03-06-2011, 04:39 AM
Ok i ran this demo now thre times Played on max settings an 5 Dynamic lights.

Run one and two resultet in 'GameClient has stopped working' on exactly 1:41 minutes
Third run resultet in missing textures and hardly no lightning at 1:15 minutes and at 1:22 minutes demo graphics freezed only sound and finally black screen and windows said: 'Application doen't react anymore do you want to force quit?' force resultet in 'GameClient has stopped working'.

Cryptic crash report never showed up :/.

My System:
------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 3/6/2011, 13:36:23
Machine name: MIKE-WIN7
Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_rtm.101119-1850)
Language: German (Regional Setting: German)
System Manufacturer: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd.
System Model: GA-MA770-UD3
BIOS: Award Modular BIOS v6.00PG
Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 940 Processor (4 CPUs), ~3.0GHz
Memory: 4096MB RAM
Available OS Memory: 4094MB RAM
Page File: 2631MB used, 5556MB available
Windows Dir: C:\Windows
DirectX Version: DirectX 11
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
User DPI Setting: 120 DPI (125 percent)
System DPI Setting: 96 DPI (100 percent)
DWM DPI Scaling: Disabled
DxDiag Version: 6.01.7601.17514 32bit Unicode

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series (HD4870)
Manufacturer: ATI Technologies Inc.
Chip type: ATI display adapter (0x9440)
DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz)
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9440&SUBSYS_22671787&REV_00
Display Memory: 2808 MB
Dedicated Memory: 1016 MB
Shared Memory: 1791 MB
Current Mode: 1920 x 1200 (32 bit) (59Hz)
Monitor Name: SyncMaster 2433BW/2433GW,SyncMaster Magic CX2433BW/CX2433GW(Digital)
Monitor Model: SyncMaster
Monitor Id: SAM0467
Native Mode: 1920 x 1200(p) (59.950Hz)
Output Type: DVI

EDIT: Ran it now a fourth time mit -shadows 0 and now i got no crash. An the end i got this report:

CPU: 3006 Mhz (4/4 cores) / RAM: 4094 MBs (2264 free) / Video Card: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series / Driver Ver: 7.14.10.812 / OS Ver: 6.1.7601 / VidMem: 1024 MBs
Acceptable video card driver

1920x1200 Direct3D9 Windowed Vsync:Off RenderSize:1920x1200
DynLights:1 Textures:10.0/10.0 WorldDetail:2.00 TerrainDetail:3.00 EntityDetail:2.00 MaxLightsPerObj:5 MaxShadowedLights:3 Aniso:16 PreloadMats:1 BloomQuality:2
RenderThread:1 FRStabilizer:1 HighDetail:1 HighFillDetail:0 Scattering:0 SSAO:1 DXTNonPow2:1 HighQualityDOF:0
SoftParticles:1 FXQuality:2 LightingQuality:10 MaxReflection:2 2BoneSkinng:0 MSAA:4 GPUFaPa:1 MaxDebris:200 PoissonShad:1 BloomMul:1.0 MinDepthBiasFix:0
HigherTailor:1 PerFrameSleep:0 MaxFPS:0 LenseFlare:2
EnabledFeatures: POSTPROCESSING DOF WATER

Version: ST.11.20110224a.14 (SVN 112695(http://code/svn/StarTrek/Baselines/S...0224a.0(branch svn = 112995)) Gimme 02241122:23:43)(+incrs) In-game Time:1.7
Demo playback finished 8702 frames in 266.551s (32.647 fps, 30.6 ms/f).
Min/Max/Avg:
objects_in_scene: 66 / 850 / 248
opaque_objects_drawn: 108 / 1083 / 347
alpha_objects_drawn: 18 / 350 / 135
total_objects_drawn: 126 / 1433 / 482
triangles_in_scene: 17883 /232639 / 63889
opaque_triangles_drawn: 36922 /423846 /118390
alpha_triangles_drawn: 488 /122700 / 28291
total_triangles_drawn: 37410 /546546 /146681
total_skeletons: 6 / 23 / 14
drawn_skeletons: 0 / 17 / 7
drawn_skeleton_shadows: 0 / 0 / 0
cell_zoculls: 0 / 4 / 1
entry_zoculls: 0 / 653 / 164
terrain_zoculls: 0 / 0 / 0
welded_instance_culls: 0 / 0 / 0
fps: 1.6 / 43.2 / 33.6
ms: 23.1 / 607.1 / 30.6
time_misc: 1.5 / 30.1 / 2.6
time_draw: 0.3 / 44.5 / 0.4
time_queue: 0.1 / 0.9 / 0.1
time_queue_world: 0.5 / 8.5 / 1.9
time_anim: 2.6 / 34.4 / 4.5
time_wait_gpu: 0.4 / 590.7 / 20.8
time_net: 0.0 / 5.3 / 0.0
mem_usage_mbs: 587 / 625 / 606
98th percentile ms/f: 38 (26.3 fps)
stalls: 97 / 5.87s
frames GPU bound: 8687 (100.0%)
perf budget frames over: 0 (0.0%)
mem budget frames over: 0 (0.0%)
Load time: 19.41s
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 376
03-06-2011, 02:12 PM
My wife's laptop has the same crashing problems. Windows 7 64-bit laptop, ATI mobility radeon HD 5870. Has crashed in-game even with shadows off, but did not repro a crash in the demo the first time I ran it.

Ran it a second time with shadows on high, crashed at 4:16.987, black screen with green lines going down the screen, complete lock up, had to force reboot (this is what always happens when it crashes, which is on average once every few minutes; we were able to get a highly pixellized frozen image back up which is where I got the time from). Should I be posting the debug files in here from the debugger?

I will continue to run further tests. Just bear in mind that the crashes still are happening on this machine, even when shadows are off (at least in the in-game options, I haven't ran it on the demo with -shadows 0 yet).

EDIT: Just to be clear, there was no Cryptic Error, it didn't let me get to that point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 377
03-06-2011, 02:18 PM
I had also had a crash outside of the demo running with shadows on low but could not get the demo to crash with that setting. I was on the this huge Klingon bridge of one of my fleetmates and got a GameCleint.exe crash. This was just infront of the Captain's chair looking towards the viewer. I couldn't recreate that crash though and was there on that bridge for more than a half hour after logging back in.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 378
03-06-2011, 02:42 PM
My wife's laptop will crash anywhere, anytime. At first it was primarily on ground missions, but now it's equal in both ground and space, and it happens a LOT.

Ran demo a second time with -shadows 0. At around 3:20, it went to black screen, but actually recovered and kept going (this never happens in game). Then at 3:50.764, it completely froze but NOT to a black screen, then it did go to a black screen after not quite 10 seconds, then recovered AGAIN and ran to the end. The screen was flickering intermittently throughout the entire run. Dynamic lighting was also turned off. So while there was no "crash" per se, it certainly wouldn't have been smooth gameplay had my wife actually been trying to play.

Ran it again with max dynamic lights -shadows 0, no crash. Doorways and the floor still occasionally flickered. Ran it a 2nd time, same settings, same flickering, no crash.

This time I ran the demo with shadows on high and max dynamic lights. The lights on the bottom of the floor at around 1:30 were flickering on and off. At 2:36, CRASHED, gameclient.exe stopped working, no CrypticError.

ATI driver version 8.821.0.0, release date 1/26/11. Should I keep running this, or is this enough information? I don't mind running it a bit more if you think I should try different dynamic lights/shadows combinations...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 379
03-07-2011, 04:20 AM
Ran this about 10 times yesterday using a 6870 video card. With Dynamic Lighting on the demo crashed within the first 3 minutes every time. With Dynamic lighting off completed without issue. Turned off shadows and had no effect except when changing dynamic lighting.

Not a single drop to desktop, or game lock produced a Cryptic Error report.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 380
03-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Thanks for testing and posting everyone!

I'll let ATI know the demo can repro a variety of the user-mode driver code crashes we've asked them to investigate.

It seems like the results for turning shadows off are inconsistent, but keep in mind there appears to be 4-5 different crashes inside the driver code. Those might all be different problems, so it's hard to say point out one specific feature as causing the problem.

I'll post again when I hear something, or have more ideas. No need to test further at this point, but if you get bored, have at!

Thanks,

Dave
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