Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-12-2011, 06:47 AM
Someone try a moderate to high Aux (set at ~50 or higher) FBP 2/Delta 3/Sensor Scan build for me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-12-2011, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
I vote yes, and here is why (and yes, I fly one, and will continue to fly one for the foreseeable future):

1. It outmaneuvers all other escorts.
2. It outruns all other escorts.
3. It out tanks all other escorts.
4. It only loses *up to* 10% hull & shields for above bonuses.

IMO, it needs to lose more hull/shields (like it did in the first revision on tribble) in order to be a balanced ship.

Discuss.
1. In MVA mode yes. But that is sort of the point.
2. See above.
3. Only if you run the MVA AE and not the RA. In which case you lose quite abit of Burst Damage compared to the other Escorts, even with TBR2 (though with TBR fully specced there is very small gap, and you've just gained yourself a very nice Control power.) If you run a Controller MVA AE, it will tank the same. The amount of tanking you gain is roughly equal to the Damage Lost if you want a tanking AE.
4. I'd like to see it lose a little more hull and shields in MVA Mode. (not much more but more. I think another 5 percent would do it)

Something worth pointing out about the pets though is just how stupid they are AI script wise. The pets are So Bad, that I find they effectively add nothing to my damage at the end of a match, even in the RA AE vs the VA AE. I really do wish cryptic would actually give us a set of Pet Commands in this game. Between the carrier pets, photonic trash, and this (the saucer section of the Gal R is even dumber) I can't believe cryptic still hasn't addressed the lack of Pet Commands.
This is to be expected of course since the only thing different to a normal AI Script they have is to attack your first target. And then they meander off on their own, just like npcs. And I swear to god, they deliberately go for each other in a Showdown once they are scrambled.

We also have to keep in mind, that Cryptic is going to redo most of if not all of the other T5 ships 'soon'. So completely judging it's balance on what we have now might be a sketchy prospect, though I still do favor the RA AE, if you give it the MVA Console compared to the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-12-2011, 07:27 AM
.................................................. ........BOP ..............................NEW AE................WINNER

Hull .................................................. .31,200...........................35,500.......... ........AE

Shields........................................... ..10,200............................10,600........ ..........AE

Turn Rate @ 50 base eng.................45 ...............................46................. .........AE

Weapons ............................................6 ...............................7.................. ..........AE

Bridge Officers..................................11...... .........................12....................... .....AE

Tact Consoles ...................................3 ..............................4................... ..........AE

Eng Consoles.....................................3 ..............................2................... ..........BOP (but not really)

Weapon Power..................................129........ .....................134.......................... AE

Special Ability wise, Bop has cloak, AE has MV. AE has to give up sci slot for it giving an edge to the bird, but lets be honest, sci slot is **** on a bird and AE anyways. Ill gladly trade two of my sci slots for a 4th tactical on my bird.


Overall this ship has more hull, more shields, better turn, more weapons (more damage, period), more bridge officers, more tact consoles (more damage, period) and more weapon power. The Bird has 1 more eng console, but itll just be used as resistance to help make up the difference in the hull.

People will say "but Birds have universal consoles"...yes but this does not matter when the feds have 10 ships with every viable configuration. All of our birds are Tact Commander/Sci LTC to maximize spike. Everyone has to have an Engy LT. The difference is in that last lt universal. If Bird goes tact theyre completely outmatched as they just copied the AE. 2nd Engy LT...meh. Sci is the only option, which I would us for polarize to get out of tractors (can get omeg to do this on escort) and sci team (which i wouldnt use on escort anyways when you can have two tact teams to do even more damage).

But we all know this ship was made to bring in the $$ so honestly there isnt much point in arguing it. This is easily the best Escort in the game. It completely makes fleet and advanced escort obsolete. The amount of damage this thing can do without any penalty to defense is just ridiculous tho
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-12-2011, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
.................................................. ........BOP ..............................NEW AE................WINNER

Hull .................................................. .31,200...........................35,500.......... ........AE

Shields........................................... ..10,200............................10,600........ ..........AE

Turn Rate @ 50 base eng.................45 ...............................46................. .........AE

Weapons ............................................6 ...............................7.................. ..........AE

Bridge Officers..................................11...... .........................12....................... .....AE

Tact Consoles ...................................3 ..............................4................... ..........AE

Eng Consoles.....................................3 ..............................2................... ..........BOP (but not really)

Weapon Power..................................129........ .....................134.......................... AE

Special Ability wise, Bop has cloak, AE has MV. AE has to give up sci slot for it giving an edge to the bird, but lets be honest, sci slot is **** on a bird and AE anyways. Ill gladly trade two of my sci slots for a 4th tactical on my bird.


Overall this ship has more hull, more shields, better turn, more weapons (more damage, period), more bridge officers, more tact consoles (more damage, period) and more weapon power. The Bird has 1 more eng console, but itll just be used as resistance to help make up the difference in the hull.

People will say "but Birds have universal consoles"...yes but this does not matter when the feds have 10 ships with every viable configuration. All of our birds are Tact Commander/Sci LTC to maximize spike. Everyone has to have an Engy LT. The difference is in that last lt universal. If Bird goes tact theyre completely outmatched as they just copied the AE. 2nd Engy LT...meh. Sci is the only option, which I would us for polarize to get out of tractors (can get omeg to do this on escort) and sci team (which i wouldnt use on escort anyways when you can have two tact teams to do even more damage).

But we all know this ship was made to bring in the $$ so honestly there isnt much point in arguing it. This is easily the best Escort in the game. It completely makes fleet and advanced escort obsolete. The amount of damage this thing can do without any penalty to defense is just ridiculous tho
You missed faster moving and better inertia.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but damn have I missed Beagles. He's absolutely right and is saying the same thing that I have been saying all along. As more and more ships are released with ever increasing boff variation the BoP's killer feature begins to look less appealing -- and the price it had to pay for that killer feature looks more and more steep. No matter what Cryptic does to the MVAM mode itself, the MVAM escort will always be OP because of the near ideal boff layout. At this point to make things equal again Cryptic will need to buff the BoP's health, add in an ensign slot, add another rear weapon, or some combination of the three. Of course, that will just just make each faction have one obviously OP escort that invalidates every other choice, but at least it would be balanced. Really, Cryptic never should have let it get this bad in the first place.

And to those that say "but it has less spike than the regular AE to compensate for the ltc sci", well, there's a reason no BoP pilot in his right mind runs a Cmdr and Ltc tac together.

Really, it would be nice if there were more "forum warriors" than me and a couple others trying to stop these things from happening. We banded together on spam and Cryptic finally listened, why couldn't we do the same for MVAM? Of course, there are probably at least a few fed PVPers who don't mind get awesome, unbalancing toys
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-12-2011, 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sithterror View Post
i know my BoP [Hegtha] using full Aegis at:
125/100
73/50
50/25
50/25

(all performance skills maxed and all efficiencies except weapons are maxed)
Inertia: 60
Turn: 42.4
Flight: 26.47
Hull: 31201
Shield: 10395
(using the Field generator)

In my MVAM with same skills and Aegis:
Inertia: 70
Turn rate: 29.2
Flight speed: 26.47
Hull: 39k
Shields: 11694


Alpha Section:
Inertia: 100
Turn: 34.8
Flight: 31.25
Hull: 37144
Shield: 10631


Beta Section:
Inertia: 100
Turn: 44.2
Flight: 34.07
Hull: 35455
Shield: 10631


Gamma Section:
Inertia: 100
Turn: 39.2
Flight: 31.54
Hull: 35455
Shield: 11137


So comparative stats.
1) BoP gets a cloak for reduced Hull and Shields vs other escorts......and the B'rel gets even less for Hull and Shields due to its Cloak.
2) the MVAM doesn't get a cloak, but instead gets to separate into 3 ships and get the Speed, inertia and turn the a BoP does or even better in some cases.

So trying to keep fair, in love and war, does it not make sense that ship splits into 3 pieces thus splits its Hull and Shield into 3 parts? Well that would actually place it lower than the B'rel and here i am trying to make it fair....so how about when all is said and split each of the 3 pilotable parts has a Hull and Shield value comparable to the B'rel??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
.................................................. ........BOP ..............................NEW AE................WINNER

Hull .................................................. .31,200...........................35,500.......... ........AE

Shields........................................... ..10,200............................10,600........ ..........AE

Turn Rate @ 50 base eng.................45 ...............................46................. .........AE

Weapons ............................................6 ...............................7.................. ..........AE

Bridge Officers..................................11...... .........................12....................... .....AE

Tact Consoles ...................................3 ..............................4................... ..........AE

Eng Consoles.....................................3 ..............................2................... ..........BOP (but not really)

Weapon Power..................................129........ .....................134.......................... AE

Special Ability wise, Bop has cloak, AE has MV. AE has to give up sci slot for it giving an edge to the bird, but lets be honest, sci slot is **** on a bird and AE anyways. Ill gladly trade two of my sci slots for a 4th tactical on my bird.


Overall this ship has more hull, more shields, better turn, more weapons (more damage, period), more bridge officers, more tact consoles (more damage, period) and more weapon power. The Bird has 1 more eng console, but itll just be used as resistance to help make up the difference in the hull.

People will say "but Birds have universal consoles"...yes but this does not matter when the feds have 10 ships with every viable configuration. All of our birds are Tact Commander/Sci LTC to maximize spike. Everyone has to have an Engy LT. The difference is in that last lt universal. If Bird goes tact theyre completely outmatched as they just copied the AE. 2nd Engy LT...meh. Sci is the only option, which I would us for polarize to get out of tractors (can get omeg to do this on escort) and sci team (which i wouldnt use on escort anyways when you can have two tact teams to do even more damage).

But we all know this ship was made to bring in the $$ so honestly there isnt much point in arguing it. This is easily the best Escort in the game. It completely makes fleet and advanced escort obsolete. The amount of damage this thing can do without any penalty to defense is just ridiculous tho
These stats do not look identical - more details on the stats influencing the final numbers?

. Also, are all BoPs now running Tact Commander, Lt.Cmdr Science, Lt.Engineer and Lt.Tactical? Where do we count Battle Cloak?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-12-2011, 09:59 AM
It depends on the equipment/power you use, plus my numbers were simplified to make it easier to read. Doesnt matter, no matter what equipement you use, AE wins over the BOP.

And no, birds should not be utilizing tact lts because they will just be completely owned by the new AE
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
These stats do not look identical - more details on the stats influencing the final numbers?

. Also, are all BoPs now running Tact Commander, Lt.Cmdr Science, Lt.Engineer and Lt.Tactical? Where do we count Battle Cloak?
1) I used my 400 respec to port my sci toon and KDF Tac toon over to tribble.

2) I took the exact same Engineering, Team, Ship and vector/maneuvers skills for both toons. My weapon, projectile and science differ between the 2. I did not see this as altering the important stats between my test...was i wrong?

3) I used all 3 for the aegis with Borg console and all 4 pieces for the Borg tests. Since the Borg number would reflect the same changes as the Aegis i didn't post them up to keep the post small too.

So, my numbers are as exact as i could make them. same skills, using same eng consoles and flying in ESD zone. that is all i can say.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-12-2011, 12:36 PM
  • BoP gets a Cloak, MVAM gets to have to pets
  • BoP gets 11 BO slots for universal, MVAM gets 12 and are hard fixed.
  • MVAM has near or better turn/inertia, as a BoP, when separated


The similarities stop there. MVAM gets lots more hull, little bit more shields and an extra rear weapons slot. Like i said previously, i cannot explain why that is so. For a ship that is less than the sum of its whole, MVAM, is better than a ship that is whole, BoP, and cannot split....yet was always heavily armed and armored!!

It seems clear that the Hull variance needs to be corrected by either uping the BoP's or by lowering the MVAM's.
It also seems clear that the BoP needs to regain its rear weapon slot or the MVAM loses theirs....or the BoP gets an innate increase in its defense value to make up for a loss in aft weapons.
which ever way you cut it, the newer ships are making the older ones obsolete and there is NO EFFORT to remake the older ones VIABLE STILL!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-12-2011, 12:41 PM
Honestly, I wasn't fully specced in The Advanced Escort (I fly Defiants), but I found MVAM more gimmicky and a pain than anything OPed. The pet spawn is easy to get rid of, kind of like a Galaxy's Saucer section.

EDIT: A bug is that the timer on the vector you used goes back up to 10 minutes after you either die, or remerge your ship.

I used the console in the original Prometheus T5 class because I couldn''t use APO otherwise and still be effective.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-12-2011, 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
Honestly, I wasn't fully specced in The Advanced Escort (I fly Defiants), but I found MVAM more gimmicky and a pain than anything OPed. The pet spawn is easy to get rid of, kind of like a Galaxy's Saucer section.
The pets aren't what make it OP -- although they do help, especially spreading around beta with faw, as well as BTWS and BTES. They aren't there for damage, but creating spam and debuffing the enemy. What makes it OP is the fact that it has a near perfect boff layout and the beta section by itself is better than the unseperated ship. The pets are just icing on top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
I used the console in the original Prometheus T5 class because I couldn''t use APO otherwise and still be effective.
You're doing it wrong.
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