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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
03-26-2011, 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Take TBR as an example of a skill which could be effected. I've used it in PuG matches against groups chasing a teammate to try and by time and distance for the teammate to escape. This action does little to add to dps and zero healing, but it may save a death. I've also used TBR to push a healer away from a wounded ally, again little damage and no real benefit to my score. On the other hand, I could just save my TBR for NPC spam situations and pair it w/an Attack Pattern to max damage for scoreboard/emblem bonus.
Attributed DPS counts as just as much as actual "direct" damage. That means that any time a teammate doesn't die because of something you did, they're in the fight doing damage or throwing heals that would not have happened, but for your save. You might not see actual direct damage or healing as a result of that isolated act, but your overall score is higher than it would have been. So if a crowd control ability allows you to continue doing damage, or do more damage, or avoid damage being done to yourself or a teammate (maybe avoiding a death and respawn), then that might be a more valuable skill for maxing overall damage or healing than another weak heal or 10-second burst damage buff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
03-26-2011, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
Attributed DPS counts as just as much as actual "direct" damage. That means that any time a teammate doesn't die because of something you did, they're in the fight doing damage or throwing heals that would not have happened, but for your save. You might not see actual direct damage or healing as a result of that isolated act, but your overall score is higher than it would have been. So if a crowd control ability allows you to continue doing damage, or do more damage, or avoid damage being done to yourself or a teammate (maybe avoiding a death and respawn), then that might be a more valuable skill for maxing overall damage or healing than another weak heal or 10-second burst damage buff.
Yes, that is my point. If someone plays and builds for dps or heals only the kind of action i described would become less likely especially in PuG matches.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
03-26-2011, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Yes, that is my point. If someone plays and builds for dps or heals only the kind of action i described would become less likely especially in PuG matches.
Well, I think that would happen only if they're not actually thinking through what tactics will maximize their total damage or healing over time. People can already narrowly focus on burst DPS or self healing to the exclusion of all else; obviously many do. But with the amount of time they spend circling the fight as irrelevant chaff, or staring at the respawn window, they should also realize that they're not getting the highest output of damage or healing that they could. The damage and healing counters are already there on the match leaderboards, so I'm sure (most) people probably already try to come out on top in one or the other as much as they can. In fact I think most people do just this; mess around, throw something together or copy a build they saw somewhere; check their numbers and see how they do, and how the ship plays in a match; go back and mess around with it some more; lather, rinse repeat. If they can't think far enough ahead to see how the overall fit of their build and tactics affects that iteration, then I'm not sure anything is going to point them in the right direction.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
03-27-2011, 11:37 AM
I know that no one really cares about ground PvP anymore, but that part of the game would be helped tremendously if ground and space skills and traits were combined, or if we had two separate pools of skills and traits.

As things are right now, you can't compete in ground PvP unless you build a character specifically for it. PvE doesn't require any ground skills or traits at all, so your just gimping yourself by taking them, which makes characters which could be competitive on the ground rare.

I know that ground combat is scheduled for a major revamp, but it will be pointless as long as a total focus on space is necessary to compete in space.

If you were going to merge the ground and space talents a bit, you could start by making the "Team Leader" skills also cover the first tier of each career's talent tree. You wouldn't need to make every space skill also work on the ground, but the earlier tier ones at least should have a lot of crossover.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
03-27-2011, 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
I know that no one really cares about ground PvP anymore, but that part of the game would be helped tremendously if ground and space skills and traits were combined, or if we had two separate pools of skills and traits.

As things are right now, you can't compete in ground PvP unless you build a character specifically for it. PvE doesn't require any ground skills or traits at all, so your just gimping yourself by taking them, which makes characters which could be competitive on the ground rare.
I don't think you really need all those space skills in Space PvE either. But there is so much more choice that it's easier to just say "you know, ground sucks anway, let's not waste skills on it".

Quote:
I know that ground combat is scheduled for a major revamp, but it will be pointless as long as a total focus on space is necessary to compete in space.
I am not even sure that total focus is all that necessary either... :p But enough people believe it and I am not gonna try and find out and prove myself wrong and gimped.

There is a thread on Dual Spec on the Startrek Online Discussion forums IIRC. Get there and get your voice heard. Dual Spec could solve this problem as well...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
03-27-2011, 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am not even sure that total focus is all that necessary either... :p But enough people believe it and I am not gonna try and find out and prove myself wrong and gimped.
I was able to split my skills up until level cap on a few different characters. While you're still leveling, almost no one is effectively min-maxed. But end-game is a whole different thing -- almost everyone has perfect skills and gear (or is at least working on it) so there's a lot less room for variation.

Ground PvP is actually a *lot* more effected by min-maxing, but space queues pop much more often and space sucks up a lot more talent points, so there's really no room to be competitive on the ground without really focussing on it.

Quote:
There is a thread on Dual Spec on the Startrek Online Discussion forums IIRC. Get there and get your voice heard. Dual Spec could solve this problem as well...
Dual spec could help a lot too, though without other fixes to ground I'd still probably use my other spec for a different ship.

Mostly I just don't think that anything can be done to help ground PvP while skills are the way they are. You already get much longer queue time on the ground, so it's really not worthwhile to suffer through long queues *and* have to specialize in ground combat to the exclusion of space.
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