Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-06-2011, 06:44 AM
Are the cloaked tractor beams my fault, because I implied that cloaked _normal_ mines might actually be a good idea? If so, I am sorry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-06-2011, 07:07 AM
I think we can let you slide on that one:p. This was on the way regardless. I like the thought that cloaking mines could help cut through the spam but I suppose as it is right now it only hides the spam.

At any rate, I like almost all of these ideas. I like having fewer mines with greater damage. I'm especially fond of using skill points to effect the percent chance of speed debuff for Chronitons although I don't necessarily agree that damage should be adjusted. The splash effect of heavy torpedoes is a great idea too. The Plasma Torp/Mines should leave a rapidly dissipating effect like Eject Warp Plasma. Tricobalts should have a bit more AoE knock back upon destruction or even contact, even if there is no stun. And I like the change to Transphasics.

I think the Tractor Mines probably could have worked out if more thought went into them but not under the current mechanics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-09-2011, 08:04 AM
Ok This is the way I see the torpedo/mine issue. Now all this is mine opinion.

Torpedos:
Photon - A decent spam torpedo but can't really touch a quantum for damage. Could use some improvements.
Quantum - The best torpedo, has a decent array of features. Best damage, second shortest cooldown, and reasonable fast, not to mention the cheapest.
Plasma - Ok Torpedo. A little low on the damage and the proc doesn't hit often enough. Heavies could use some love, cause they pale in comparison to tricobalt and you need a rank 3 skill to get them even somewhat near Tri damage.
Transphasics - My opinion the worst torpedo. It's low damage really kills it's functionality, I mean when a quantum can do about just as much bleedthrough damage as a transphasic tand still have its killer hull damage to boot then theres a problem. Not to mention the drawback of being the second longest cooldown torpedo minus the tri of course.
Chroniton - Would seem to be a good torpedo but has two many drawbacks that hurt it. Having the longest cooldown of all the normal torpedos and a lower then photon damage, not to mention the cost make this torpedo sub-par. Even it's special is not so great when you consider that your need a highyield 2-3 to reliabaly apply the debuff.
Tricobalt - While having a long cooldown no one can argue with it's power and the usefulness of the stun.
Another problem with torpedos is the spread ability, as the opener said it performs it's role dismally.

Torpedo Solutions:

Photon - increase speed alittle and give it a innate 10% acc buff. Maybe reduce cooldown by 1 sec

Quantum - unchanged.

Plasma - Increase damage equal to photon. make skilling it up increase proc. Make torpedo do a AoE explosion even if it's destroyed and the radius of explosion based on rank of high yield. Another possible improvement would be to allow the High Yield to leave a patch of plasma like that used with Eject Warp Plasma when it detonates.

Transphasic - Increase damage to equal a photon and allow skilling it up to increase shield penetration.

Chroniton - Increase damage to somewhere between quantum and photon and allow skilling it up to increase proc chance slightly.

Tricobalt - Allow it to AoE detonate if destroyed and maybe reduce cooldown alittle.

Torpedo Spread - The below list is my opinion of how they can make Spread fulfill it's role better yet not make it better then high yield. Also the change makes the torpedo more effective the closer multiple mobs are.
Torpedo Spread 1 - Fires 1 90%(1 Km AoE) damage torpedo at 3 targets.
Torpedo Spread 2 - Fires 1 90%(1 Km AoE) damage torpedo at 3 targets and fires one 50%(1.5 Km AoE) damage torpedo at each target.
Torpedo Spread 3 - Fires 1 90%(1 Km AoE) damage Torpedo at 3 targets and fires 2 50%(2 Km AoE) damage torpedos at each target. Graphically will look like your firing the correct Spread 1 at three targets.

Another cool feature for Spread would be to allow you to dumbfire Spread if you have no targets making it travel 7Km in front of you and detonating in a 5Km sphere.

Mines:
The problem with mines is universal in my opinion and have to do with some core problems with the weapons.
Problem 1 - The aggression range is way too low and they abit slow. This is in my opinion the main cause of the clutter issue many players are complaining about because the mines aren't attacking and thereby building up. Solution increase attack range by 2 kmish.
Problem 2 - Damage way too low(does not include tricobalt). Currently mines do about 1/4 the damage of a torpedo, which with the drawbacks of being destroyable and lack of control make this a noticable issue. I believe the solution is to make each mine equal 1/2 a torpedos damage or at least to 1/3.
Problem 3 - Lack of use of abilities. Currently there is no reason to use the dispersal patterns as your not likely to kill or even severly maim a person with mines even in those numbers, compared to High yield there is no contest. Also a another drawback is their rank requirements being higher then that of torpedo abilities making them less desirable over other abilities. Below is something I think would make the dispersal patterns more desirable and would make freebies like the breen transphasic cluster torpedo have some drawbacks over the use of the normal mines.




Mine Solution:

Universal - Increase all mines aggression range by 2 km and increase speed slightly

Dispersal Pattern Alpha - Make getting the 9 skill points in mines give this rank 3 ability as trainable as it should as this ability doesn't exist in game. Make every mine deployed with this power get a damage and crit chance buff like if it was effected by attack Pattern Alpha.

Dispersal Pattern Beta - Make every mine able to apply the Attack Pattern Beta debuff on the enemy when it hits them.

Photon - Increase damage to 1/2 of torpedo and give it a innate 10% acc buff.

Quantum - increase damage to 1/3 of torpedo

Plasma - increase damage to 1/3 of torpedo and make ranking it up increase chance of plasma proc and allow the proc to stack.

Transphasic - Increase damage to 1/2 of torpedo and make ranking it up increase shield bypass slightly.

Chroniton - Increase damage to 1/3-1/2 of torpedo. Change the proc to 25%, but reduce the potentcy to a stacking 5% overall decrease to speed and turn, and make skilling it up increase the proc chance and maybe the potency.

Tricobalt - If the above changes to mines are made I think allowing this mine to cloak or have a reduced cooldown would be warrenteed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-27-2011, 11:58 AM
Why aren't mines and torpedoes treated in the same vein as energy weapons. Every energy weapon does the same effective damage as any other energy type, everything else being equal. The only difference between energy weapon type is the proc. Yes? Do the same with torpedoes (I'll return with a mine proposal).

Photon, Quantum, Trics are the torpedoes of choice because of the damage; Chronitons for the proc. Plasma and Transphasic suck. Try this:

Photon - Leave as is. This is the standard to which all others are compared.

Quantum - Increase the DPS a bit to almost equal Photon. Currently, Qs are at ~80%; bump this to 90-95%. These are supposed to be higher damage; they represent the improvement. They are faster moving, but the longer cooldown provides balance. (The only curiosity is the MK III; it has a 85% Photon DPS.)

Plasma - Increase damage to equal Photons.
Plasma proc - tie to skill level. 0sp (skill points) = 0% chance -> 9sp = 45%
Plasma HY - I like the AoE damage idea on impact or destruction. Radius is Rank (I, II, III) and skill point based. 0sp = 0km - 9sp = 2-3km; fades with distance.

Chroniton - Increase damage to equal Photons.
Chroniton proc - tie to skill level. 0sp=0% > 9sp=45%
Chroniton HY - effects are same as photon.

Transphasic - Increase damage to equal Photons.
Tranpshasic proc - Increase bleedthrough damage as a percentage of hit. Tie to skill points 0sp=0% bleedthrough > 9sp=45% bleedthrough. CD tied to SP as well, 0sp=?? > 9sp=slightly above Quantum CD
Transphasic HY - effects are same as photon.

Tricobalt - leave these just as they are. perfect damage. nice effect. I like the AoE on destruction idea added to this; similar to Plasma effect.


Torpedo Spread - provides damage increase same as Torpedo High Yield.

Torpedo Spread 1 - Fires 3 torpedoes; provides1km AoE stun 0sp=0s > 9sp=0.9s
Torpedo Spread 2 - Fires 3 torpedoes; provides1km AoE stun 0sp=0s > 9sp=1.8s
Torpedo Spread 3 - Fires 3 torpedoes; provides1km AoE stun 0sp=0s > 9sp=2.7s
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Another interesting idea resulting from the most recent change to (and increased popularity of) BFAW is that the heavy torpedo types could, and in fact should, have a defense value so that there is a chance that they can be missed! It's so crazy but it just might be awesome.

I seriously hope that this thread is bookmarked for the Dev who is going to be responsible for reworking torpedoes and mines in the future.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-28-2011, 03:11 AM
Considering how it falls off the page regularly, I can really only hope it's bookmarked, because otherwise only the most dedicated people will find it. :p

I like the idea of giving "heavy torpedoes" a defense score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tranceaddict
Why aren't mines and torpedoes treated in the same vein as energy weapons. Every energy weapon does the same effective damage as any other energy type, everything else being equal. The only difference between energy weapon type is the proc. Yes? Do the same with torpedoes (I'll return with a mine proposal).
Why should they work the same?

But maybe you are correct - working from the same baseline might make balancing them easier.

Quote:
Photon - Leave as is. This is the standard to which all others are compared.

Quantum - Increase the DPS a bit to almost equal Photon. Currently, Qs are at ~80%; bump this to 90-95%. These are supposed to be higher damage; they represent the improvement. They are faster moving, but the longer cooldown provides balance. (The only curiosity is the MK III; it has a 85% Photon DPS.)
If you keep the different cooldowns, but raise the DPS, that means that the burst damage between the two is different, and quantum torpedoes are even getting better at it.

As long as torpedoes do not full damage against shields, the goal of any torped user is to bring the most damage he can find in the 6 second window a downed shield gives him.
A weapon with a longer cooldown but the same or similar DPS as a weapon with a shorter cooldown will always be preferable in such a situation.
If an ability like High Yield Torpedo boosts only one single shot with that weapon, it will always be the better choice to picka weapon that has less, but more powerful shots.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-31-2011, 05:30 AM
I kind of agree that torpedos need more of a baseline at least in the damage category(except tricobalt and quantum of course). Where the difference comes in is the specials of the other torpedos.

Photon - if most torpedo's are using this as a baseline then it needs alittle something more to make it stand out which is why I suggested the innate 10% acc buff and maybe slightly shorter cooldown so it becomes the spam torpedo of choose.

Quantum - no change good as is.

Tricobalt - no change cept the detonation on destruction or contact mentioned earlier with radius based on skill. Only change I would do is maybe a 15sec shorter cooldown based on how balancing the other torps pans out.

Before I get to the proc torpedos here I disagree with trace. While I agree with proc based off skill I don't believe they should start at 0 as there would then be NO real reason to use them over the above mentioned. Cause for ships like sci ships they are strapped for points as is and is normal to see them with little weapon training. The following proc changes are based just on the skill in question and not the generic projectile skills as I don't want to bother with the more complicated math.

Trasphasic - Should have a starting penetration of 20% and raise up by 0.5% for every point put in Transphasic skill so fully ranked would be at 46%.

Plasma - Starting proc of 20%. Skill raise of 0.5% a point for a result of 46% however I believe the Heavy torp should get a 100% proc every time. Same heavy detonation on destruction and contact to target as the tricobalt but radius is based on lvl of high yield. Rank 1 - 1km, Rank 2 - 1.5km, Rank 3 - 2km and make the radius increase with skill based off a 1% to 1% equation how a result of 51% radius increase.

Chroniton - Same starting proc and equation as the others.

The main issue I'd like them to fix is torpedos gross lack of reliability especially the heavy ones. They really need to fix the misfire issue and the cooldown issue. What I mean by cooldown issue is I can have only one torp on my ship use a high yield or spread before in firing arc and end up having to wait for a 8 or so second cooldown once I get in firing range before I can actually fire, when my torp should of been ready to go the instant I got in firing arc.

One conceen I got about these changes is the current state of the difficulty system. While I believe them neccesary for the players in the hands of the NPC's is another matter. Right now the torps are the most deadly thing the NPC's use. On Elite it is normal for photons to hit for somewhere around 15k-20k a torp non crit for that and heavies and tricobalt can be one shot killers against a fully healthy ship. Now can you imagine how the above changed torps like the transphasic would be!(Cringe)

Another concern I got is the viability of torps and mines versus energy weapons. It seems to be the opinion of many players that projectiles are not worth using cause with there rate of fire you can do more dps with a energy weapon then a torp. I kinda agree with this accessment and think energy weapons need a damage handicap aganist hull to make projectiles more favorable. After all torps are usually considered to be standard equipment for starships in Ster Trek and I think the game needs to encourage this more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-03-2011, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
Why should they work the same?

But maybe you are correct - working from the same baseline might make balancing them easier.
I don't mean to imply that they share the same abilities; the chroniton would be out in the cold. Photons should not have the system proc that the complimentary phaser weapon produces. I only mean that each weapon class (energy, torpedo, mine) should have a base line weapon type (phaser, photon, photon) to which all other weapons of that type are compared.

Example:
Phasers are the defacto standard for energy weapons. All other energy types are modled around the phaser. The procs change (team setups would influence type), but the inherent damage of energy weapons remains consistant.

Example:
Photon torpedoes do x% to shields and x damage to bare hull; no proc
Quantums do x+y% to shields and x+y to bare hull; they move faster (the "proc" in this case) but the reload time normalizes the DPS back to the photon (x) standard.

Example:
Photon mines do x% damage to shields and x damage to bare hull; no proc.
Chroniton mines do x-y% damage to shields and x-y damage to bare hull; but, they have a chance to slow the target (proc). Here you get a chance to slow the target and thus reduce defense generating more damage elsewhere which is offset by the reduced damage of the mine itself.

The only time weapon classes should share procs is when the weapon type is the same. Chroniton mine and Chroniton torpedoes share proc. Tricobalt mines and Tricobalt torpedoes share the same proc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
If you keep the different cooldowns, but raise the DPS, that means that the burst damage between the two is different, and quantum torpedoes are even getting better at it.
Yeah, you're probably right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
As long as torpedoes do not full damage against shields, the goal of any torped user is to bring the most damage he can find in the 6 second window a downed shield gives him.
The only thing I have against the current shield/torp thing is that ALL of the torp damage is mitigated by even the slightest of shield presence. Torp and mines are kinetic weapons and as such should see their damage most effective agains hull. But, the shields need to mitigate that damage based on how much (%) is present. Example: a 50% shield facing would mitigate say 80% torp or mine damage. A 1% shield facing would mitigate 1% damage. ??Maybe the presence of shields would eliminate the proc??? Some type of asymptotic slope based on shield percentage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Destoroyah

Before I get to the proc torpedos here I disagree with trace. While I agree with proc based off skill I don't believe they should start at 0 as there would then be NO real reason to use them over the above mentioned. Cause for ships like sci ships they are strapped for points as is and is normal to see them with little weapon training. The following proc changes are based just on the skill in question and not the generic projectile skills as I don't want to bother with the more complicated math.

Trasphasic - Should have a starting penetration of 20% and raise up by 0.5% for every point put in Transphasic skill so fully ranked would be at 46%.

Plasma - Starting proc of 20%. Skill raise of 0.5% a point for a result of 46% however I believe the Heavy torp should get a 100% proc every time. Same heavy detonation on destruction and contact to target as the tricobalt but radius is based on lvl of high yield. Rank 1 - 1km, Rank 2 - 1.5km, Rank 3 - 2km and make the radius increase with skill based off a 1% to 1% equation how a result of 51% radius increase.
Yes and no. Just having a weapon type gives you access to the proc, but you need to skill into the type to enjoy it's effectiveness. Someone with no skill points into Chronitons would have a significantly reduced chance to proc. 1 Skill point, chance to proc is reduced slightly. 2 skill point; change to proc is equal to the base line change.
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